Freedom from Diet Culture F*ckery

Kat and Val drop some profound truths about living inside of diet culture and what it's like to live outside of it.  Characteristically, funny and warm, our hosts tell personal stories about this shift in their lives and pass on some useful tips on how all of us can be free. Body peace is our birthright, we can all move towards freedom together and that's a beautiful fucking thing indeed!

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat: 0:33

Hello?

Val: 0:35

hello.

Kat: 0:37

morning, bro.

Val: 0:38

Good morning cats we're here. You're queer.

Kat: 0:48

beating me to that. Well then, uh,

Val: 0:53

hello, dear friends. Uh, Yay. We're happy to be with you for another week.

Kat: 0:58

Body liberation

Val: 1:01

So, how are you feeling after last episode?

Kat: 1:03

I know I was, I was worried I was going to have like big time vulnerability hangover, So Val got a call from one of our longtime listeners, heard it first thing this morning. And they were on speakerphone and he was like, I'm pumped up. Wait. No, no, you guys got me jacked up

Val: 1:21

Um, free motherfuckers

Kat: 1:23

liberation. Uh, good job. We appreciate that feedback. Thank

Val: 1:29

it's so good.

Kat: 1:29

but seriously, after that call, I was like, yeah, bitch, I'm just going to own all that. The more true thing is, that Valerie, I really do sort of like play off of your reserve a little bit and emboldens the fuck out of me. And so I

Val: 1:44

oh, great.

Kat: 1:47

I think that I come off, even more extroverted, especially like, you know, in my sexual freedom and liberation, stuff like that. That's an aspect of who I am. It's not the full picture people. Like, you're not going to meet me someday and be like, Hey, let's go make out maybe depends. I mean, if the vibe is.

Val: 2:06

the timing's right, you could really lead into it. I

Kat: 2:10

Sometimes I can. Yeah. And also like I'm a complex

Val: 2:12

you're a, multi-faceted a diamond weight. Oh, our longterm listener. He's like, I would dive in, the rough baby. You're a multifaceted human. So Sometimes you want to be flirtatious. and sometimes you don't.

Kat: 2:27

Absolutely. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm just sort of sharing that. So like the humans that don't know me at all, aren't like, whoa, that cat person, my God.

Val: 2:36

Yeah, whoa. Back up, bitch.

Kat: 2:38

a lot. Yeah.

Val: 2:40

Well, I think what I'm learning from this is that the more reserved I am the more emboldened you are. So I need to work on that.

Kat: 2:48

yeah. I don't think that it's a bad part of our dynamic together. I think it's really fun. I think it

Val: 2:53

I love it.

Kat: 2:54

good TV, you know, uh,

Val: 2:56

And that actually is sort of real life.

Kat: 2:58

Yeah. Yay. So I had someone I posted a tick talk about this episode where I'm saying Hey, fat's neutral, it's a neutral word. And someone like DMV right away, an old acquaintance of mine, who I knew from when I was in ministry actually. And she's deconstructed a lot and she's also a therapist now. she had a question for me. And I said, Hey, can I show this on the podcast? I think it's important. And she said, yes. And she goes, well, should quote, thin people use the word fat. And I was like, ESU. Because, I would like to see fat move in our culture towards the neutral descriptor that it really can be, which is, someone's tall or they're short or they're fat, or they're thin, but it requires because of the charger around the word, it does require a check-in. So you check in with the humans you're interacting with, and then you're just doing the work to dismantle the power of that word, the negative power that was ascribed to it. Right. And so as a straight sized person, let me explain that real quick.

Val: 3:53

So

Kat: 3:53

In fact circles, we sometimes refer to people who are not fat, as straight sized. And that's someone who will like go into any clothing establishment and be able to get anything they need, Yeah. So straight sized people. They, they would have to do a check-in with whomever they're talking about, especially if it's a group of people in someone's fat and someone's not fat and you're just you're making conversation. You're like, oh, I heard this great pod as usual. Listen. so they're just challenging the idea that this has to be a negative, has to be a charged word. And they went on to say that they lymph selves do live in a straight size body and they have a child who lives in a straight size body. And it's a girl child. And, she's already been called fat and doesn't want to be fat as like young, I want to say, like maybe four-ish. And that is what happens in our goddamn culture. That's why it doesn't really matter what size of body you live in. Every single one of us are taught to hate our body. And if you are a four and I've already gotten the message that you're going to experience scrutiny for being fat, we are failing ourselves. We're failing our children. And so. Parents, this is what we have to do. We have to do the work for ourselves to be free. And we have to live it out in front of our kids. So like I live in a very fat body when my kids were just babies. You know how kids will follow you into the bathroom? My kids would just naturally want to come and put their hands on my belly. even though I wasn't very far along in my body neutrality journey I knew right away that I wanted them to know that this was fine. Right. And there's a sensory pleasure. in feeling fats, fat skin, fat bodies, right. It's got that fun ripple. Right? Okay. Seriously, I'm going to be a little graphic right now, but like, you know, what's fun about breasts.

Val: 5:34

Well, I was actually thinking the same

Kat: 5:35

Yeah. Like it's kind of amazing when you like get a cup of breasts and it's got that fun, like ripple it's fantastic. And so what's weird is that in our culture? This great sensory pleasure we've said, okay. It can be. On a breasts or on your ass and that's all. And then you don't get to have that kind of pleasure if the fat, which is all the same, it's just on a different body part. That's just dumb. That's dumb. Dumb. Yeah. And so you have a fat belly, it's the same sensory delight. Yeah. I had a lover once who had just. Best love handles. They had like a side role I would love to lay my arm across their belly, and then like, just sort of grab on this perfect little spot. Oh, it was so good.

Val: 6:16

I used to be uncomfortable under frequent touch my stomach. And then I was like, well, why, why and there's nothing wrong with it. Oh, just all the fuckery. I love the last episode We just kept saying fuckery all the fuckery back to the story about your friend, I think that it's proving the point of why making the term fat a more neutral term helps everyone. because Then yeah, there is no stigma to it.

Kat: 6:41

So I say to my kids, I, some people use fat as an insult. It's not an insult and I'm the authority in their life. Right. When you're faced with that question, how do you combat, rampant fatphobia in our culture, you say the word fad, you. Make peace with the fucking word. You do the work to make peace with the fact that, Hey, if your body changes and it starts to carry more fat, you're going to find a way to make peace with that and then you just start to say like, Hey, look at my, belly, it's got some fat on it. You know, come touch my fat kid. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, we don't hide. We don't live in shame. Right.

Val: 7:16

It's so good. Okay. Today we have for you as the second half of this glorious body liberation conversation we had, it was just also good So.

Kat: 7:27

Right. And then here comes some more great

Val: 7:30

Oh, wait. Well, wait, there's one word they were good. Talk about

Kat: 7:34

I don't know if you remember

Val: 7:35

for the last episode you were very hyped about me getting some flirtation attention for my embodied body and as I was listening I'm like, You know, wait a minute, listeners, did you notice cat just totally throws away Rafiq my husband and any of the sexual attention or adoration? I'm maybe getting from him was like, yoga. You're in a long-term marriage and. yeah, we're fifth grade, But I was like, oh shit He just totally threw all of that away. But I think your point was just to be like celebrated or it's a different energy, than like your partner right. that you're with all the time. And. Where people are noticing you for your body or for how you're sparkling, or Ooh, I want some of that, that's hilarious.

Kat: 8:28

Well, okay. So I also was in a long-term marriage. And so I would say that my experience now obviously is so much different than when I was having regular sex with my husband. It was good. We did great in that area. But also The fact that you've done all this work, like you got married 16 years ago. Yeah, you've got someone with you. That's been along the journey the whole time, but like sometimes external people that you haven't known quite as long, they get to see you. Like they see Val now. Yeah. I had a lover who like, I would share like, oh yeah. I used to be really insecure about my body. And they're like, I can't even comprehend that Catherine. Right. Cause they got Katherine today. Like present life, Catherine. I felt really safe in my marriage to be a sexual person. And even though my fatness was not brought into it really, cause I had some body shame my belly wasn't worshiped by my ex. I think that's probably fed into why I'm insisting on that now. You know what I mean? I wasn't a part of me that I

Val: 9:24

doubt.

Kat: 9:25

I'm not, I'm not trying to like throw her feet like completely way. Like we're fixed you guys. I mean, just go to Instagram or Facebook as like a hot shit. Right. This guy is passionate

Val: 9:36

gyrating hips, lucky girl. is I think too coming out of Purity culture. You were teasing me for where I was like, yeah, I had to make sure no one saw these. voluptuous breasts and, got tempted by them. Right. it was a very different way to move in the world. And so even just that part of oh, and it's okay. It doesn't mean that you're like Doing something outside of your marriage or disrespecting your partner. If people flirt with you, and you're not like, oh, I need to shut that down,

Kat: 10:09

That's fucking patriarchy right there. That's misogyny to be like, I own this

Val: 10:13

man. It's just such

Kat: 10:14

And no one else gets to acknowledge them as, a whole being, including their sexuality.

Val: 10:19

Well, I've had discussions with women. about. Well, what do you do if your husband notices someone else's body? I'm like, well, I'm probably right there too. wow, that's a nice ass. Like, Why that feels so free. Even being in a long-term monogamous relationship, right? That feels so free to noticing that he's noticing a bouncy pair of breasts going down the street. like who would it or just Right. it's normal. Like I always thought it was funny that especially if you're in a very uptight church setting. People want to act like they're not having sex, but you know, again, you're not showing up as full person. Why is that hidden? everybody in church is probably having sex. Right?

Kat: 10:59

Well, I wasn't goddammit.

Val: 11:03

I mean, all the leaders in the married people and it's this hush thing.

Kat: 11:07

of the Puritan movement, you know what I mean?

Val: 11:09

For religious Freedom. They came here, um,

Kat: 11:11

Puritans. And they're like, you know, They sit all that stuff was bad. And so we think that that, doesn't bleed into what we still have today. No, it

Val: 11:20

Oh Yeah. This is weird.

Kat: 11:22

It's gross now. So yeah. That's why like you marry this awesome Brazilian it's so helpful. Good job. Yeah. Oh, Rafiq told me today that he wants to take a whole bunch of fucking people to Brazil with him for carnival

Val: 11:35

Doesn't that

Kat: 11:35

next February.

Val: 11:36

Yeah. if he hires someone to do all the administrative work, you're not allowed to borrow my brain for that, sir.

Kat: 11:43

Yeah. Yeah. And so Val and I were like, oh, we could do a podcast, body liberation at garner of up.

Val: 11:48

Actually. Okay. Okay. In an effort to, be more open about talking about stuff, Raphy came down, what did he say? So he's growing his hair out. Listen, one of the sadnesses of us not having kids as they would have had amazing hair. And the eyelashes and the hair would have been amazing. Right? So he's growing his hair out and you have your belt that We have a great picture We're going to post it.

Kat: 12:14

My hair's growing back in, so it's like very like

Val: 12:16

him rubbing your head and you like renting your hair through

Kat: 12:20

there's so glorious. It's very spongy and curly and dense and thick.

Val: 12:25

It also good. So he's growing it out. And he was telling you about how, when we went to close on our house, the woman was all of a sudden, oh, can I touch your hair? And it was just one of those weird things that people of color. Yeah, not cool lady, not cool. She also said some other weird Yeah. Sorry. He's like, I did not have that kind of intimacy with, her. And I love it. But That's funny because I was talking to my friend and I was trying to say the word for the female. Pleasure. Oregon. Yeah, but I wasn't sure if I was seeing right because of his accent.

Kat: 12:58

that's hilarious. Oh my God. Because the only context you're hearing the word cliteracy is from your rough resilient husband. I mean, this is very funny. So you didn't know for sure how to say cliteracy.

Val: 13:12

I was saying it to her that I was like, wait a minute. Is that the right pronunciation? I'm sorry. It's with

Kat: 13:16

your feet say, please tell us, come on. Val clitoris.

Val: 13:22

I mean, these, he's saying the word and knows where it is and you know, it's taking good care of it. So there you go. That's my contribution.

Kat: 13:32

you guys, she tried to make eye contact again while talking about sex stuff is so good. But she was saying the word clutter is letting us know it's taken care of.

Val: 13:46

It's such an embarrassing moment where you're like, wait a minute, am I saying this right? So funny. So so the rest of the episode, the rest of our conversation for today starts with, we're going to throw the commercials and then we're going to get right back into the second half of this and. As I explained my body liberation journey really started with getting rid of diet culture

Kat: 14:06

Yeah. Specifically about deconstructing diet culture. So you guys are in for a treat. Good job. I love you, Val.

Val: 14:12

I love you. to

Kat: 14:13

All right. Enjoy these commercials. And then there's more.

Val: 14:16

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Kat: 14:34

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Val: 14:34

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Kat: 14:46

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Val: 15:12

Well can I share a little bit about my journey?

Kat: 15:14

Oh, please. Do I want to hear about it?

Val: 15:16

I think mine started more with diet culture and we haven't even talked about this yet, but there's a concept about being a good fatty. being a good fat person, Actually, and I was always sporty, right? I think My I was first born my dad, my dad wanted a son, so every single sport. And honestly, I think there was a very big gift. My my parents that. it was, My body was always, it was always strong, It was always athletic and there were different things I could do with my body, than just

Kat: 15:49

Right

Val: 15:50

And so I'm grateful for that gift. So the concept of being a a good fatty. Oh, I know. Cause I was saying I was on the varsity tennis team and there was another girl that wasn't. thin either. And we would call each other fatty We were doing that early on, and our coach was an aerobics instructor and just made us run and I hated running. And we would cheer for each other go fatty. go fatty. And we'd say, go fatty Boomba Laddie, go, go get the ball, get the ball. And we would be really cheering. for each other. And then, And then another girl who was not fat would try to say fatty We're like, you can't say, it. Yeah. And then I'd say who said I was slow? Who said I was slow if I ever got the ball. So how do you, prove your worth in society? If you're a good fatty, right? If you're, You're always on a diet or you're eating nutritious or eating salads or you're into eggs. Right. Right? I had a friend who say, I didn't know any, anyone who exercises more. than you Val,

Kat: 16:44

Ah, totally

Val: 16:45

And those are ways that you were a good fatty or you knew, right? Like you were aware that your body was not accepted

Kat: 16:50

and you were like apologizing and by all your behaviors, you're like, I know, I know I'm working on it. That was me for decades.

Val: 16:58

oh my whole entire life, one of my first vivid memories was that they must have weighed me. I mean, I was little and

Kat: 17:06

I was waiting second grade.

Val: 17:08

I'm talking less than five. And I remember that they were whispering about it in the car. And again, like, I know, it's out of concern Yeah, it was my mother. No, but I mean, again, that's why we need to dismantle this stuff. Right. Because guess what the research says. People who grew up to be fat. A lot of them were told they were fat and they were shamed about it as kids. So the predictor of having extra weight is that told that it was

Kat: 17:35

problem Yeah, totally. Yeah. Stop it. Oh my God. Don't comment on anybody's body. I don't care if you're like trying to compromise, like, oh, you're so skinny. That is not a fucking compliment. You don't know why someone's skinny. They could be goddamned sick. You don't know anything. It's not cool that our culture is told all of us to constantly commenting on everyone's body stopped doing that. Don't do that no more,

Val: 17:58

no more. No more.

Kat: 18:00

Yeah.

Val: 18:00

And I realized I got a lot of praise. You get a lot of praise when you lose weight. And then it doesn't stick and then the

Kat: 18:08

the fucking shame.

Val: 18:09

So, the moment for me was when I said I can't go through this roller coaster again, the weight came back on, I couldn't go through it again. I just couldn't take the emotional ride and. There was something not good about that. And Now, what does research show us that actually having more weight on your body? Isn't a predictor but what we do know that is bad for us is weight cycling.

Kat: 18:31

Yeah. And okay. Yes. Why waste cycling is bad for you, but also shame is bad for you

Val: 18:38

shame Shame is bad for

Kat: 18:40

the body you're in has health

Val: 18:42

for you

Kat: 18:44

but

Val: 18:45

no shame is bad. And then the shame at the doctor's office. Right. But we're told, and I guess I wanted to include this because I think that we're told all these things are bad. right. Friends, you need, to, think who is benefiting from this message.

Kat: 19:00

Well who's benefiting from you hating yourself. Honestly. It's fucking capitalism. Yeah. Diet culture is like a multi-billion dollar industry. I mean, I think it's like$90 billion industry, Google it, people

Val: 19:12

listen. I love the book, intuitive eating Evelyn tribal and I forget the second author's name, but they, they break it down. that Like 95% of diets people gain weight back. And it is not an effective way that doctors should not be prescribing it our bodies think, oh gosh, we're in a famine. And our weight goes back on what is it called? A restriction, right? The moment you say, oh, I can't have caffeine Cause I have a blood test tomorrow or whatever. Then you're like, oh my gosh, I need my coffee. So all of that and food gets so much morality, right? So anyway, that's where my journey started. And I remember thinking, wow, I feel like I have healed my relationship and I'm not getting any praise for it. I felt so free. I felt so happy. And I was like, wow, nobody. But when you lose weight, everyone sees it and comments and you're getting dopamine hits there. Right. And I was like, wow, this is fucked up. A lot of it is to stop moralizing food, to stop restricting yourself to actually listen in to your body. And again, I'm not saying to do this so that your body is smaller, or bigger. That's caring for ourselves right Listening to

Kat: 20:19

learning that you can trust your body. That's the thing. That's what was taken from us. Our ability to simply trust yourself, to trust your cues and your hunger. We can heal this. We can heal this. You're allowed to trust your body Yeah

Val: 20:35

When I read in the intuitive eating book, when you start to think about that's your body's first cue that it's probably almost time to eat. So you better start looking I could weep talking about. it because I always thought You fatty, you know, you're, you're, you're always thinking about food. you're bad for thinking about food, You're obsessing about food. And when someone pointed that out and educated me Yeah, every four or five hours, you should be eating, That's normal and healthy. I felt like I could trust my body again, that, Oh, well look. Yeah. It's three and a half hours my body's saying, Hey, start thinking about what you're going to have for and I could to enjoy food. feel like that was the biggest first step for healing my body because there was such a

Kat: 21:24

of course, and again, you just said earlier, like dissonance creates We, most of us have trauma I don't care what size your but most of us have trauma that

Val: 21:35

Well, that's what I've realized is that our society has fucked, us so bad when my body was thinner. and friends that I have that are in smaller bodies They're almost as fucked, but here's the thing, right? They still have social currency and their body isn't punished. They're not. punished for the size of their

Kat: 21:53

So I don't have that social currency really. You know what I have, I have freedom and that is fucking amazing. Right? Like

Val: 22:00

cause, you don't need because you've divested. from needing that currency from society.

Kat: 22:05

yeah. I mean, it would still be nice to, you know, not have it, but here's this other fucking amazing thing that happened. Okay. After I had my kids, my body changed really dramatically. It just expanded so much. And I didn't know, I had this condition. I had no idea it was related to the pregnancies and I just felt so much shame. And I remember being really dreading, my older child being in school because I knew I would be made fun of probably to my child. That fucking shit happened. I volunteered in their classroom one time. After I leave my son days later, maybe even like two or three weeks later was crying to me about how one of his peers said, why is your mom so fat? Goddamn? That was like the scariest thing to me. Right. And then it actually happened. Right. So that hurt like a motherfucker. I used to take my kids to the park and I would feel like the other parents are watching me with these two small kids. And I would feel them not making eye contact I would feel judged in the body that I was in. I was moving through the world expecting to be met with hostility because I had all of this internalized, this is not okay. The body I live in fast forward to. Now I move in the world and I don't have this like, expectation that people are going to be interacting

Val: 23:30

them

Kat: 23:31

just healed itself. I mean, I did all this work. I'm not saying it's easy,

Val: 23:35

you did a lot of hard work.

Kat: 23:37

Yeah. So literally the energy that I move in and the way human beings interact with me is radically different. Right. And so the systems are actually the same. It's still a motherfucker to like find seating. But then if I don't see seating, that's going to work for me. I will go to someone up at the front and say, Hey, listen, I need a seat. That's got no arms and it's gonna accommodate my body. And I'm not apologizing. I'm very unapologetic. And I try really hard to make sure that they're not hearing petulance in my voice. Right. I shouldn't have to do this. That's true. But I also recognize that like, I am more free than most people. And so it's, it sounds really strange to say, like, I've gotten to a place where I live in a state of compassion for people whose bodies are probably much smaller than And yet I recognize that I have kindness in my body, towards my body. I live in a state of self-compassion. I live in a state of where I am my own biggest fan and cheerleader, and I don't ever say mean shit to myself.

Val: 24:40

And that changes your experience in the world for the most part it overrides

Kat: 24:44

it feels like a fucking miracle. It literally, it transformed how I move through the world. My inner space is reflected externally. Yeah. My inner space is reflected externally. I live in a state of kindness. I mean, that doesn't mean I'm not a messy bitch. It doesn't mean like, you know what I mean? That I have hard days well

Val: 25:03

are, or that people aren't assholes, but you're getting at something so good and so deep because we've all been the person who's had their defenses up rightfully so because the world is full of fuckery, but there is the switch. That's why I love to tell clients too, that your world can change if no one else around you changes. And that feels so incredibly powerful, right? It moves us into this locus of control that your partner doesn't need to change for you to have a shift or an experience. Obviously that's a very nuanced concept, but I don't move through the world really worried about what I look like or how people might be judging or seeing

Kat: 25:43

Yeah. Well, that's so interesting because, okay. You are aware of what it feels like to live and be very conscious of your externals, right? Self-conscious right. Just feel good. I don't like it. Right. And so like even my decision to shave my head was absolutely that same sort of thing. Like I know what it feels like not to be self-conscious, but I was noticing because my hair is then in fine. I felt like my hair was too thin. It made me feel self-conscious lovers would be trying to stroke my hair and be like, oh, don't strip my hair. I felt self-conscious. I don't like it. I don't like it. So like, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna fucking shave my head. And then it's funny. Cause you know, I'm not looking at myself all the time. I'm happy to look at myself, but I just mean like, oh yeah, I shaved all my fucking hair. So in some ways I'm still getting used to that, but it's because I'm so committed to living with. That I'm not, I am not ever going to allow something to I'm, I'm thinking Self-conscious I would rather be bold and be free.

Val: 26:45

Wow. Even with your bald bald bitch, pretty deep. That's interesting. Yeah, I haven't heard you explain it that way. It is a lot of hard work, that journey. And I think for me, I'm probably still on the journey. I think about it far, far, far, far less. Where I remember, I, was in a big phase where I thought being a good fatty. I want to work up to a half marathon because running Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was like, I was up to like a 10 mile around, I think over the golden gate bridge. It was beautiful. But I remember looking around and San Francisco is a very fit place.

Kat: 27:22

Right.

Val: 27:23

And I was like, I think I'm the largest person in this gathering. Huh? I didn't feel too bad about it but I think I still am conscious of it, but I think now when I go to pickleball things, I'm not thinking about my size. at all. I'm not worried about it. And it does, it feels so It feels so good. It feels so

Kat: 27:43

I know we can be free. I mean, freedom feels, so it is worth all the effort.

Val: 27:47

Well, I wanted to make sure I said this, that I think a big thing that, helped me to get free was the lie that dieting works and that it's the answer to your body being bigger, right? I think that we were Oh, your body got bigger. Well, you could just diet and then everything would be okay. And I think we're just realizing that for most of the people, most of the time, no, it's going to fail. And now when I see people doing it, I actually feel sad. I feel sad because I know that most likely they will gain the weight back. And, and it's just, I've been there and it's sad. So I think another big moment for me that I would love to share realized that dieting and being smaller, wasn't the

Kat: 28:29

It's not the answer

Val: 28:30

answer. You might not love that your body has gotten bigger for all the reasons right. for having to buy new clothes or, or whatever it is. But, but dieting is not the answer. It's not the answer.

Kat: 28:41

No, go inside. It's not the kind yourself. That's the

Val: 28:46

And To be kind to yourself. and we're focusing on the wrong metric. Right? Is What are the things that you're doing that feel good in your body? I was doing a little bit of a I'm actually a proponent of emotional we do it all the time. When you're sick. What do you want Chicken soup when you miss home? What do you want You're feeling like there's, There's nothing morally wrong about emotional eating. And it wasn't feeling good in that moment. And because it didn't feel like care. for my body, There was a different way to care and to, address what was going on inside of me

Kat: 29:15

Well now you have access to more ways to have pleasure and yeah. Sometimes it's food and sometimes your bias is gonna be like, oh, let's try the other thing.

Val: 29:23

Yes. And so then when you're not worried about this number or the size of your body, then you can look at things that are health promoting because they feel good in your body. Does it feel good? I talk to clients about the first time that you exercise and you do it because you're anxious and you know, that moving your body is going to make you feel less anxious That is another game changing moment. We're also reclaiming exercise, not just from this beauty standard or are controlling your body

Kat: 29:52

yes. It feels good to move your body hundred percent

Val: 29:56

but when you're doing it, because you know that you are, shameful.

Kat: 29:59

I know that's the thing, like that's the turnaround, again, you get to reclaim when you go back and you have freedom. You're like my birthright is to feel good in my body. Then all of a sudden, moving your body is oh, that's pleasure. It's not punishment to try to control my body or get my body to conform. You're like, oh, that's pleasure. Of course, pickleball is pleasure. You know? Yeah. I found that I actually do love to go to the gym. I would love it if I could get myself there more often. My life doesn't conducive to being there as often as I would like it, but I love how it feels when I'm like using these different weights and using machines. And I'm in sort of the weightlifting air where it's mostly like, you know, like big buff, male people And I'm just doing my own fucking shit there. And I love how it feels when I'm strong. And I'm usually playing Lizzo, almost the gym. And so I'm like weightlift dancing is a thing I invented and I'm like, I wouldn't gym in a public space in a very large body dancing while lifting free weights, which is not a thing that people do. And I'm in the section that a lot of people are intimidated because it's always beefy dudes and I'm like, I don't give a fuck about you fuckers. Oh, In front of a mirror, happily, happily watched myself dance around with these free weights and just doing what feels good in my body. It's hilarious. Oh my God, one time I was on a treadmill. This is a couple of years ago, time. I think as someone who worked at the gym kept fucking trying to make eye contact with me to give me like a, I dunno, I got thumbs up or cause I was just, I dance on treadmills to it's just so funny. It's a, what you can do. They have the things to hold on to value dance, just hold onto the handrails. That's why they're there. So thank God for Lizzo. Fucking love her so much, by the way. This is a whole side note, but Lizzo, every fucking thing that I sit on here about sexual freedom and all that stuff, Lizzo hundred percent. Right. God damn. I love that human being. She is like, I am getting it all the fucking time. Right. So Catherine didn't invent this. I'm just getting free, like Liz's free. Okay. So at the gym, people will try to come up to me just because the body I live in. Right. And they want to, like, sometimes they want to congratulate me where they think I need a pep talk. I don't need your fucking pep talk. I don't, you know, that's the only thing, mind your own fucking business in public spaces. Like don't size one up and think that you like some great thing to be like, oh, thumbs up to you. Right? I'm not sad that people assume I need their fucking pep talk. And I'm like, have you fucking seen me? I'm killing it. I'm goddamn thriving in my life. Fuck you, I don't need your goddamn pepper. And I started, wouldn't make eye contact with this person and they just kept like, And I've listening to music. Like you don't talk to strangers at the gym. Like that's what the rules are. Anyway, that happens to me with some One person I was walking from one place to a different place in the gym and they like a costed me to tell me about beet juice. If you really want to lose weight beaches, you don't fucking know I'm here to lose weight,

Val: 33:01

Ooh, fuck you. And your fucker ego. Take Your beat Jews

Kat: 33:04

I know. I

Val: 33:06

no, no, no

Kat: 33:07

know, I know fat people that have like t-shirts that says I don't give a fuck about your diet, Susan. Like it's written on their t-shirt. That's a good t-shirt.

Val: 33:14

Diets are sad. Ah

Kat: 33:16

anyway, if you're a listener, like just don't ever talk to anyone in the gym about their body, leave everyone alone. Oh my God. I'm not sad fuckers. I'm not as sad. Vadie I'm a dance

Val: 33:30

Hey, One other thing I wanted to make sure we talked about. because I also want to see people who get free. Is that if you were at a church or if you have been at a church that mixed weight and holiness or morality. Run the other fucking way. I'm so sorry that you went through that I look back at it and it's disgusting. And I mean, of course I participated in it, but no, no, It's

Kat: 33:56

we're done with that part. People, all of us, we're all

Val: 33:59

Jesus. Did it talk about a diet. Fuck that? No. No

Kat: 34:05

Let's have her shirt. This is Jesus fat And that'd be awesome. Nobody knows if he

Val: 34:10

Jesus. Doesn't care about your diets. Shannon What? Susan,

Kat: 34:16

And so funny. There's no way to know if Jesus was fat. We just assume he wasn't fat. I think Jesus is the first batty. Buddha was fat. People love Buddha. Fuck off. God damn

Val: 34:28

that's true, huh?

Kat: 34:32

Okay You know the paleo diet and then they find these old statutes, you know, I'm talking about there's these little statues where it's like a super full breasts and a big full belly and big old wide hips. And there's all these statues So like what they're saying is like people do the paleo diet And so the, the artwork that they're finding from that time period as a fat fucking woman, who's goddamn worshiped people worship me.

Val: 34:57

No, I think I was worried. Oh, if you gain weight, like Well then Fuck him.

Kat: 35:05

Yeah.

Val: 35:06

I remember when we would be in Brazil Rafiq would so be when are you going to buy your bikini? I was like, what, He's like, come on. When are you going to buy her bikini? And I mean, this was maybe 15 years ago, but I remember seeing. like, Wow. no, Literally everyone's wearing a bikini despite their size and they are so much more liberated and body stuff there. But I was like, wow, these women, like it's not bikini body. Right. Like, fuck that anyway. But right it wasn't that it was, everyone was free. And I think we we're getting there a little bit more and the freedom to just wear shorts and wear a bathing suit and not care and just enjoy, the beach, but okay. This, I have to show this other funny thing. So, so every once in a while, man, I love a good McDonald's fries. and It's not moral that I only eat them every once in a while, but every once in a while we'll Go McDonald's right. oh yeah, let's get some fries. some fries. And so, I just noticed this trend that every single time we were, in the drive through. McDonald's or frequent decide to call someone,

Kat: 36:02

oh,

Val: 36:03

and I'm like, what are you doing? And you know how, like, when you have a thing that you don't want to tell your partner, but then you're just acting super weird and angry, dumb, like, what do you do? Stop calling people I can't believe you. the Fuck. Turn off the phone. Like, I'd get so mad at him, but I was ashamed to say anything. And finally, I was like, babe, look. Okay. Cause I didn't want to talk about being fat to him. Like he didn't know, And also maybe he's not using score the highest on empathy. So I didn't know if he'd really understand And, so I was probably rightfully so a little bit afraid to say anything, but finally I go, babe, Look, I know you don't understand Cause you did not grow up in a larger body, but I'm terrified of being judged. If I go to McDonald's, it's different than if you go to McDonald's, nobody's judging you because you're in a thin body, I don't want you calling people and telling them, Hey guys, we're in. the McDonald's.

Kat: 37:01

Right, right,

Val: 37:01

right. And now I think I've healed so much even from then that I don't care anymore. I don't care it doesn't matter so what, and then he was like, oh, Okay. He could actually maybe understand a little bit. of it. And then I was rewarded for my vulnerability.

Kat: 37:18

Yeah. There's a lot of fat activists out there right now. One of the things I love is that people in fat bodies are like almost. Daring you to say something to them by like, eating cupcakes, like being really, really public about all the foods that were again, like that's a bad fatty food, right. You're not allowed to, you have to hide that stuff. You don't do that openly. And so that was like this really sort of perverse rocketed, in your face sort of thing of like eating all of the treats and the wonderful things they're so decadent. If you like follow hashtags on Instagram or whatever, like fat activism

Val: 37:49

really

Kat: 37:50

to just, be exposed to different things. So like you can retrain your mind of what is acceptable and what is neutral and you know, all those kinds of I want to tell you one more like a fun, little dating story. Like. So, yes, they are. You don't have to tell me

Val: 38:08

it's really hard to compliment

Kat: 38:10

I have sex with that are listening are an avid listener to this

Val: 38:13

listen, listeners if you have, what's it like to be cats, friend? I'll tell you it's really hard to give her a compliment. Cause she's like, oh, I know. I'm like, fuck, I'm just trying to hype you up girl. person.

Kat: 38:26

Oh yeah. That's so funny. Anyway, so before I was out there having sex with people I had dinner with this one woman she also lives in a fat body and it was kind of a date. It was more like friends than day, but like, there was just a little. And and she knew that I was newly out and had been in a with a straight sized partner. So my ex-husband is straight sized he's thin. And so she goes, well, have you ever had sex with anyone who's fat not yet. And she such a treat. And I was like, what? That was so fun. This thrills me to this day is because she was like fat sex is so goddamn fun you know, and it's interesting because, you know, again, attraction is multifaceted, but I have noticed that human beings I am most attracted are living in fat bodies and that's not because I'm self conscious of my fat body. It's because I love how it feels to touch and make love to who also lives in a fat body. Like, fat bodies are, just so sexy and if you look at my art page, like. Like a fat roll, which used despised is now in my mind, the most beautiful thing. Like it's the part of the art, I most want to make sure it's really visible, I'll go and I'll like, highlight the fat rolls. I don't want you to miss that part. goodness. Right. You know, you think about like eating some sort of delicious food and it sort wet and chin. It's like, like the yummy deck, having sex with a larger bodied person. It's, that's what it feels like to me, like the sort of you know, of sensory pleasure. Yeah. Ugh.

Val: 40:10

Well, speaking of your art I said, I wanted to highlight it. You know, We have our commercials, but, I know that you've talked about it being sort of just a healing journey for you. But go by some of cats, are all the links are there get some body diversity. I know you've told me that people have put it in like they're like doctor's offices, or therapy offices, viewer in charge of a public space, Let's get some representation. out there, buy it for your own pleasure.

Kat: 40:36

Yeah. it's interesting like putting it in your home, even if you're straight sized and maybe you have children, you know, last episode we talked about parenting, body neutrality is what we teach our children. It is a

Val: 40:47

them

Kat: 40:48

you know, my kids are getting close to puberty and their bodies are changing a little bit. They live in a home where they're not, they've never been So last night I was talking to my and I said, Hey, this might sound like a strange question, but do you ever feel about the fact that I live so fat and they were like, no, not really. It even though it's not like most people's parents and they're like, no, I'm just don't it just seems And that is the gift I get to So you put this fucking shit up in your house. I'm calling my art fucking shit. The reason why I started making it was change my perception of what was acceptable and what was beautiful. These images are actually beautiful. And so you put images up and they push back onslaught of

Val: 41:40

culture

Kat: 41:40

and then it, gives us more freedom. It makes us more We get to was

Val: 41:47

Cat Okay. This conversation is

Kat: 41:50

Juicy

Val: 41:52

Blame it on the Jews.

Kat: 41:53

Mm I know Thank you, Lizzo. God, we love her You are so lucky listeners.

Val: 42:00

Oh Listeners. I'm sorry about that.

Kat: 42:03

They feel it. They know they're lucky. They're like, wow, we're

Val: 42:06

Well, they're listening. They're enjoying

Kat: 42:08

right here at the table with us. We are happy to have you here.

Val: 42:11

my gosh. We would love to hear how your body liberation journey's gone or something that you're learning what's moving around for your listeners. your friends.

Kat: 42:20

Yeah. Or come flirt with me. Like I want to get in. Be queer though. Just be queer please.

Val: 42:28

all right. So we talked a lot already

Kat: 42:31

about, well, you skipped over that so fast I was telling her listeners to flair with me

Val: 42:35

I'm sorry. Yes. Listeners. Cat wants you to flirt with her.

Kat: 42:42

Okay. That was enough.

Val: 42:47

Okay. I love you so much. All right. So we've talked about what's moving around for us while

Kat: 42:52

you learn

Val: 42:53

What's What's bringing us pleasure,

Kat: 42:55

bringing you pleasure,

Val: 42:56

was just telling you, cat, that I have enjoyed it so much. The series on HBO about Julia child, called

Kat: 43:05

Julia Julia

Val: 43:06

I, was so into the Julie and Julia

Kat: 43:09

too. I loved that movie

Val: 43:10

and I actually was a kid. Who had nothing to do on Saturdays? I would Watch Julia child and Yan can cook if Yan can cook. So can you love him? I love Martin Yan and Julia child So I grew up with her. on PBS And I was so struck cat by how much I could relate to this woman. She wasn't the norm. She was like Six foot two,

Kat: 43:36

ferry tall people don't always realize how fucking tall she was

Val: 43:40

two And you know, not in a small body. it didn't have children.

Kat: 43:46

not conventionally attractive

Val: 43:48

but charming as

Kat: 43:49

So charming

Val: 43:50

thoughtful people. said She was very thoughtful. and had this great romance with, her husband. I actually, because this is what I do when I watch things about real people. I listened to the podcast, the accompanying podcast, and they're great. They're great. Nephew helped her write her memoirs and he said, no, it's real. That's not a Hollywood. A fied relationship. that they really had this deep romance and it was unconventional and it was a modern romance. Oh, I feel like I kind of have that. Right. and also we are getting older. and we're coming into ourselves. We're finding our second act. And just Even her knowing that it's just kind of in the boys club, right. She had to win over the powers that be, and and maybe she had to find social currency in different ways and knew that people were judging her on her body.

Kat: 44:38

I love that she had this like deep inner knowledge, this like conviction of like, I just want to do it. Like she laid out so much of her own fucking cash to make this show.

Val: 44:48

Actually, I thought of you when she was like, I want this motherly thing in the world Davis. I wanted so much.

Kat: 44:54

She was clear on what she fucking

Val: 44:56

She really And she went for it. She took risks didn't know what the fuck she was doing. Right. She never was on a TV show, before. Also had all the feelings and self doubt and had the trigger husband a little bit. you know,

Kat: 45:09

That's the best part

Val: 45:11

was the best part. The the female brigade that she had around her that,

Kat: 45:15

yeah Close intimate friends. she had community, she had people that really saw her

Val: 45:20

people that Wanted to champion her. And in that left space for them. to find their own shine. Right, but oh, San Francisco. I was like K QED. I know They were the first ones to pick up. her

Kat: 45:37

I know That's so exciting. Yeah. And then like James Beard award I didn't know anything about James Beard and I'm like, he is a cute, adorable fat gay man. Who's a chef. But I'm like, I didn't know. He was fat. I didn't know he was gay. I'd love him. I love him. And he loved Julia child so much,

Val: 45:52

Everyone loved her so And that was the other thing was that they're like, why is she so popular in San Francisco? And they're like, because we love our food here. And because San Francisco is a city of sensualists and I was like, it's so true. though. I feel like I could identify so much as living in this area. where it's like the decadence of good food and just like and there is a lot of history of. the pleasures, the pleasures of the census in San Francisco. Of course. And even that, there was like a drag queen, right? There was a person in drag that made up a character. of

Kat: 46:25

Oh my God. I love that part so much.

Val: 46:28

So great. And then the person went and told their mom that they actually met the real Julia child. And then of course, because I went to, Wikipedia and then the Wikipedia is like all the popular references, There's been two episodes of the RuPaul drag race. Where somebody dresses up as her.

Kat: 46:44

I got, I love

Val: 46:44

Isn't that amazing. And just this woman, we're still talking about

Kat: 46:47

Okay I think like authenticity equals queer icon. That's what I think. I think the queer community has a tendency to make icons out of, you know, sometimes it's often straight women, but there's some that about them. They're like authentic in a way that like queer people are like, oh yes, you, okay. So yeah. So Julia challenge, queer icon.

Val: 47:08

And No, and I guess I want to say that she had a complicated at first she did homophobic views. And then when a friend, right, it always happens when someone close to you. A friend got aids. She became a very vocal aids activists. And

Kat: 47:23

We love that journey for her

Val: 47:25

love. We love a journey where people can change their minds but that brought me a lot of pleasure. and It was just like, oh, I feel so. seen in this. I don't know why, But I do. And it was just a delight, I don't like to rewatch shows. I know that that's a thing. I don't find pleasure in it, but I do love a sweet show. Like We watch a lot of like crime drama stuff, but I love a sweet. show.

Kat: 47:48

You and your

Val: 47:48

No, Me and my imaginary

Kat: 47:49

friends.

Val: 47:51

I had an imaginary friend as a kid. It was the little girl from the Brady bunch. What was the youngest one's name? That was my imaginary

Kat: 47:57

That's funny.

Val: 47:59

Fuck you. Okay On that note, goodbye, dear friends.