Sex Positivity

Kat and Val spent decades steeped in religious "purity" culture, only to abandon that limiting and restrictive worldview for a much more expansive one. Welcome to sex positivity! Our hosts laugh heartily as they unpack delightful words like "kink" and "power play" and embrace the freedom to explore whatever lights us up.

*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
RADICAL ECSTASY - Dossie Easton; Janet W. Hardy
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat: 0:33

Valerie Del Lugo today, we're talking about sex.

Val: 0:39

Let's talk about six, babe. B

Kat: 0:42

let's talk about you and me. No, no. you right into. That's so funny as if you didn't see it coming. My God,

Val: 0:51

I didn't see it coming till I finished the light. I was like, oh, this is comedy gold. I

Kat: 0:56

I mean, you.

Val: 0:56

it.

Kat: 0:58

Oh, my gosh

Val: 0:59

goes around here folks.

Kat: 1:00

Uhhuh, I've teased you bit in these weeks and weeks. We've been together podcasting about being do you self identify as a prudish person?

Val: 1:08

I, I really feel like that's a bell curve. that's really really that's really just dependent upon who's around.

Kat: 1:18

Sure. Oh yeah. Contextual of course. Contextual. Yeah. Yeah.

Val: 1:21

That's really funny dear listeners and maybe new friends out

Kat: 1:25

there, do you just, Hey, new friends,

Val: 1:28

if the title of this episode pulled you in and you're like, I don't even know these people. There was a question was if I was a prude or not, and now it's probably true. I feel like I wanna say no, but I probably say.

Kat: 1:39

yes,

Val: 1:39

I'm working on it, definitely working on it. Sure. And I, I blame purity culture. We can talk about that later. But you know, you teased me also about like value, you know, we're gonna talk. Sex at some point in this and I just didn't wanna look at your

Kat: 1:53

eyes. I know, I know. No, that's my favorite thing to do is tell on you when we're talking about something a little re scared. I'm like everybody's not making eye contact.

Val: 2:02

yeah. Yeah. We'll see how we go today. Cuz folks buckle up.

Kat: 2:08

a whole episode about sex. I wanna pretend like I'm like so excited. So here for this, but also I'm a little bit like how much do I really wanna say out loud to strangers on the

Val: 2:19

internet? Yeah. Cause you're a real and vulnerable bitch.

Kat: 2:24

I'm a real and vulnerable bitch.

Val: 2:26

I feel encouraged by that

Kat: 2:28

shot Oh okay. Good. Yeah,

Val: 2:30

you're thinking about things before you say them

Kat: 2:34

Holy shit. This hilarious. occasionally I think a bit before I

Val: 2:39

of course you do. I just like to tease

Kat: 2:41

you. I have a couple things on my notes that I'm like, I may say that I may not say

Val: 2:46

Yeah. You reserve the right to change your

Kat: 2:49

Totally. So I have landed in a place where identify. Very much so as someone who is sex positive. we both have a shared background of evangelical culture, which includes purity culture, which is not sex positive. No,

Val: 3:03

Nope. It's sex. Absolutely not.

Kat: 3:08

right. And so sex positivity is just like having an open attitude, a tolerant attitude, a progressive attitude towards sex and sexuality. And, as long as consent is involved, like not yuck and someone's Yu, right.

Val: 3:22

I'm really grossed out by that saying I just wanna let you know, I really don't like that. But that's just, how many times is Val gonna prove

Kat: 3:30

it

Val: 3:30

she's approved? You know, there's certain words. Like some people really don't like the word moist. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat: 3:36

You don't like the word. Yum. Why is that?

Val: 3:38

Someone's yum. I don't know.

Kat: 3:39

Oh, poor Val. That's hilarious.

Val: 3:42

I.

Kat: 3:42

know. I thought that was like a really neutral way of saying something, you know, like, oh, don't, don't poo poo, someone's curiosity or someone's interest. I love it.

Val: 3:52

I've seen memes recently, too, where it was like, if somebody's putting their Christmas decorations out now, leave them alone. maybe that's their only shred of happiness. Like if it's not bothering you, let them do it.

Kat: 4:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if it does bother you keep it yourself. Yes. So the larger idea is Hey, let people live and do their thing. Right. If we're not hurting anybody, like we can have a positive attitude towards, it might not be your deal, but someone else's deal and that's fine

Val: 4:16

also. Yeah. Let's not shame it. If it's consensual and everyone's happy,

Kat: 4:20

right. Why the fuck not Val.

Val: 4:22

The older I get and the more I deconstruct from everything,

Kat: 4:24

it's like,

Val: 4:25

why not Who's it

Kat: 4:27

bothering? Right

Val: 4:28

When I see things from people who are past ideologies, posting things do you really, is it really that big of a deal? Let people, whatever pronoun they wanna use, however they wanna identify whoever

Kat: 4:37

whatever you want.

Val: 4:37

sex with. Like, do you really think it's that big of a

Kat: 4:40

deal? right What's

Val: 4:41

about like, God made all the galaxies. Do you think he

Kat: 4:43

cares Totally.

Val: 4:45

No shame.

Kat: 4:46

Oh, good. I like

Val: 4:47

this. So I, I, I think I've exposed it.

Kat: 4:49

Yes. You're congratulations. Clap, clap, clap, clap club. I'm giving you little snaps for being so positive. Quite the journey. We're gonna break for commercial and then we're gonna get into it. We're gonna deconstruct purity culture. We're gonna talk about some other very fun things.

Val: 5:03

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Kat: 5:21

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Val: 5:22

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Kat: 5:33

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Val: 6:00

We're back.

Kat: 6:01

That was super fun.

Val: 6:03

Thanks for supporting us.

Kat: 6:04

Yeah, we really appreciate that commercials. Yeah Okay. So again, we both came from purity culture. We spent years subjected to it and I mean, we were in ministry and a campus pastor and I later went back to some of my students and like apologized for how I had perpetuated

Val: 6:19

some of

Kat: 6:20

about we're not supposed to have sex before marriage.

Val: 6:22

What would you say is a working definition of purity culture? like, if someone was not subjected to this,

Kat: 6:29

yeah.

Val: 6:30

what did it look like?

Kat: 6:30

Well yeah, it's like an understanding that like, you are supposed to be avoiding sex at all costs just address modestly. The onus on purity was way more placed on fem people than

Val: 6:43

Mm.

Kat: 6:44

people Right. You were supposed to kind of live like an asexual person until you got married and on your wedding night, you're allowed to be a sexual person within a really tight container of marriage and, you know, monogamy and all that It doesn't make any sense with how a human being actually is. You can't turn it

Val: 7:01

on There you go. Yeah, there you go. Cat. There you go.

Kat: 7:04

purity culture. I wanna try to say counterintuitive. It it's just not how a human works. Right. So normal human development is in your young teens. You begin like having sexual feelings, impulses and desires. Curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. And

Val: 7:20

and all that shamed.

Kat: 7:22

I think, you know, the larger culture outside of evangelical culture can be kind of puritanical as well.

Val: 7:26

Well, right. The Puritans came here to find religious solace. Just very

Kat: 7:31

Rigid ideas around well, and then what else is it? Is it that like a

Val: 7:35

Victorian era sensibility about

Kat: 7:38

sex or, yeah, well, like when did it show up, right. Is what I'm trying to get to, like, when did these ideas about sex and sexuality show up throughout human history? Right. And it'd be interesting to learn about like the more indigenous peoples and their relationship to sex and sexuality and sexual development. That's not something I know very much about, but I'm curious

Val: 7:56

I remember reading actually I think through grad school about this tribe, I wanna say it was somewhere in like Southeast Asia where the young woman actually picked their sexual partners. They had their own little huts, little sleeping areas, and it was encouraged that they had many partners and they were the ones with the power I love to hear about that too, because, well, I'm fascinated by cultures, but just that there are different ways to

Kat: 8:23

that Yeah. And to give sexual agency to like a young woman is, is kind of amazing. And that's really different than what we've all been exposed to in like patriarchal culture. Right. Where, you know, it's a, a man who has to initiate sex and, you know, again, our ideas about sex tend to be again, very heteronormative mm-hmm right. Even the ideas of like, First base second base, you know, again, these are like the end goal being penis, vagina sex, as if that's the only like actual sex mm-hmm whereas I've noticed as a queer person now, like sex is a lot more expansive and it's definition, right? Any kind of sexual energy and sexual contact, all of it is sex. Right?

Val: 9:02

right. I don't know how much I will talk about sex in this, episode. We've talked about that, but I will say. I think purity culture is just so damaging because it goes against one of the natural drives that we have a hunger thirst sleep, right. And a sexual drive that it's natural. And why shame it? And fear, I think fear was another way to control people. Right. And also withholding information. God.

Kat: 9:32

We didn't know anything. I was in college and we did not know hardly anything about

Val: 9:36

sex. Did you get the sex talk?

Kat: 9:38

No,

Val: 9:38

I didn't either I just heard keep your pants on. I scoffed at that point too.

Kat: 9:42

I'm like, yeah,

Val: 9:43

gonna be the sex talk. I mean, I was glad, right. Every teenager was like, ah, help,

Kat: 9:47

so fear and repression. When you repress your natural curiosities and desires and you hold it in place with shame and fear, right. It comes out in, in other

Val: 9:58

ways, Mm-hmm I

Kat: 9:59

the other thing, you know? Yeah. Or it just takes you a hell of a long time to like, learn something about

Val: 10:03

yourself. And I think that it really does create this disconnection with your body. Absolutely. Right. So you're talking about you know fem people are told that your body is dangerous. Mm-hmm like it can cause a full grown adult. To be tempted, but all the placement, even we're talking about, what's happening in the world now with abortion rights, it's all about the, the person carrying the baby. Isn't it. And not about the other person that might have been involved, that patriarchal thing of like it's all on the, on the woman. So the spaghetti straps, right. It's always talking about like girls getting sent home because they're wearing spaghetti straps so then you get this internalized shame about your body and that you're just supposed to be.

Kat: 10:43

mm-hmm

Val: 10:44

And that you're gonna cause someone else to sin. Right.

Kat: 10:46

As opposed to teaching us all of us, not just, you know fem people or masculine people, all of us need to learn how to like, recognize what our urges are and then open up conversations about consent, about how to control yourself. Like self-control right. It's interesting. Cuz like in Christian circles they talk about self control a lot, but like. What they have done with, sexuality is they're like, shut it all the fuck down as opposed to just acknowledging yeah. We're all sexual beings. And like, in some places it's appropriate to express that in other places. It's not, you know what I

Val: 11:17

Sure And talking about maybe the sex in, in a more realistic way. Sure. And, and sure. Right. Like puberty happens to come when you're a teenager. Right. The brain is not fully functional yet. Right. The brain is not thinking ahead toward consequences as much. Definitely feels invincible, right? And you feel like, you know, everything, you don't need any adults to tell you what to do. So it is sort of in that sense, right? Like maybe a time to start experimenting with, with all this. Like, I get

Kat: 11:45

my choices as a parent, this is interesting again. So I've been sex positive for a long time. Like before I even realized I was queer and before my long term heterosexual marriage ended, we were evangelical you and I were, and then I married someone who Was a devout Christian, but like mainline Christianity was just a lot less rigid about some of this stuff. And so anyway, so it was pretty sex positive. So I've been talking to my kids about sex as soon as it was like any possible

Val: 12:10

way to come up Sure. It's part of life.

Kat: 12:11

Yeah, very normalized so much so that they're like the information has been given to them before they recognized any sexual desire in themselves, which I think is really empowering where they're not suddenly like,

Val: 12:25

ah, they're not surprised by it, the shame what's happening to my

Kat: 12:29

body. right Where they've

Val: 12:30

they're prepared.

Kat: 12:31

And they've already been like, this is not an embarrassing thing. This is a normal thing. You know? And it's funny, like sometimes we're watching, even Marvel movies or something where like, you know, two characters are kissing or making out or something like that. And it used to be a funny joke where they didn't notice it for a little while. And then they started to be aware of it, you know, like, oh, you guys don't like that part. And then, you know, my older kid was like, I don't, I don't mind anymore. You know, and so like my older kid will check in with me sometimes and, and just about puberty stuff, you know? And I'm like, oh my God. But also my kids are like, mom, stop talking about sex, cuz they're at that age where it's a little bit, you know? And so I don't know. I'm just really. Delighted that I get to have an up close view of what it's like to watch a human being develop without all of that shame and all of that, restriction that they get to just kind of bloom into who they are free of that. Right.

Val: 13:23

Well, and what I was gonna say was I can understand the concern. Yeah, all these things are converging at once where teenagers, but I, I love your approach is like, well, let's get them some information beforehand so that it's not right. I mean, even just the first time that you have your period, right? Like if you knew it was coming, if you were prepared, but if not like, right. We've all seen the movie where the girl thinks that she's dying.

Kat: 13:43

Of course

Val: 13:45

so how gentle, how. compassionate. Yeah. I I'm just realizing, like to give kids information obviously age appropriate, right. Yeah. Mostly

Kat: 13:54

I think so. I might be an overshare sometimes. but you know, what I've been good about too I talk since they were quite young, talk a lot about like bodily autonomy and consent stuff. Right? Yeah. And so they really know what it means to be in charge of their own body and their own space.

Val: 14:13

Can I just say that comes at a price? And I think as parents, you have to do the work, to have the, repercussions of a child who has body autonomy, because you just asked one of your children for a hug and you got denied

Kat: 14:26

I know, I know. Like I, it's sort of this funny

Val: 14:28

and now it's a funny thing, but a lot of people, I think. For whatever reasons couldn't handle that. Right. I'm the mom give me a hug,

Kat: 14:37

too. Right? So again, if you zoom out what purity culture is, it's about controlling people. It's mostly about controlling fem people. Mm-hmm which is just so infuriating. But once you zoom out enough and you look at what the fuck is going on, that's what patriarchy is. It's this masculine person is gonna have control over everybody else and fuck all that. Right. When you look in the history, people have, moved like women's liberation forward often there's like overt sexuality. As part of that, reclaiming your

Val: 15:05

Mm-hmm

Kat: 15:05

your interest in sex, your pleasure reclaiming your pleasure as a means of like, power. Isn't that powerful. Isn't that interesting?

Val: 15:16

Yes.

Kat: 15:16

Okay. So we talk about, yeah. Sexual power is, is a huge part of my deconstruction too. Right. And it was interesting cuz I'm online on some like X evangelical groups, like some support groups, you know? And then I saw this meme on there once. So it was talking about the church kid to kinky person. And I love that. I was like, oh my God, me too. Me too. Right. Well, and the, the idea is that when you're impurity culture, it like tries to, teach you that you should basically, like we said, live asexually until suddenly you're married and then boom. Everything should just be like no problem with very, very little education. Yeah. Right. And and you know, my own story is that I was someone who didn't have. Sex with my husband before we got married. And so it was like, we were waiting until we were married. And then because of all the years of shut it down, shut it down, shut it down. It really did take us a while to like, have both of us be able to, to be together in this way without our brain sort of being like, oh, shut it down, shut it down. Right.

Val: 16:18

Yeah. I, I think it's a mind fog to tell people to keep it all the way down and then like, oh yeah. And now because you have pledged marriage right now, you're supposed to just all of a sudden turn it on. And I think there's a lot of sexual dysfunction out there in it Yeah, because of

Kat: 16:36

this. Yeah. But when you, okay, so when you leave like an oppressive worldview that tries to say, you have to stay within this narrow margin. Most of us who have left that space have left it because we started to feel curious about things that were outside. What was

Val: 16:52

mm-hmm you

Kat: 16:53

and then you have to do this inner work of like, oh, I'm recognizing some dissonance with what I've been told. And what's happening is the information inside of me is getting louder than all the programming. And I have to like, follow what feels true on the inside. And so it doesn't surprise me that a lot of other former church kids would also want to explore sexuality and all the way to the fullness of it. And so if you're gonna be someone that's exploring sexuality into the fullness of it, you're probably gonna run across like, you know, a fun word called kink

Val: 17:28

you can talk to us about this. I actually think that this is fascinating. you are bringing the knowledge to the table today about this, cuz I really know very little and I was actually really interested even from just like a psychology humanity kind of viewpoint, because I think that the mainstream idea of it and even living in the bay area, like there's the Folsom street fair and Oh, these people just like to do wild things that, that sound wild but actually when you explained it and I actually, even before UAT had another. Talking to me about their exploration in sort of the, the submissive dominating culture and just that it was maybe deeper than I thought it

Kat: 18:04

this and and holistic it's really, really fascinating. So I realized that my long term marriage is over. I realized that I'm queer. And then in that, in that space, it was like the floodgates opened and suddenly I wanted to explore everything. So, you know, like I talk about my dating journey of like dating as many queer people as I could. And I was exploring like non monogamy or polyamory, but also in that space, I was. Interacting with people that were like actively involved in the kink community or the leather community. Also the known as the BDSM community mm-hmm so it's interesting of my understanding. I'm still a novice in these spaces. And I wouldn't say it's like a big part of my identity, but it's something that I gave myself permission to be curious about without shame. right? Yeah. So like, that's the thing. Once I moved away from all those repressive systems, I was like, I'm allowed to be curious about anything that just looks shiny to me, you know? And that was like probably one of the. The most powerful transitions of my life to no longer feel any shame about anything I was curious

Val: 19:08

about Mm

Kat: 19:09

Yeah. It was a really profound shift in my life that I could just be allowed to be like, oh, that's interesting. I'm gonna read everything I can about that, you know? So when I was dating people, one of the first queer people I dated, I've mentioned this before they were a sex educator. And so they would do like workshops. And so they'd had online workshops cuz the pandemic and so it was like intro to BDSM. And so, you know, again, like mainstream culture, we have these scary ideas about it cuz we don't understand it. Right. But it's a community of people where they're just. I'm curious about this, or I'm interested in like different sensations and people in the kink community are really careful to say, Hey, everything about kink is not sex. And that's really, really important because what we're doing is we're creating safe spaces to explore. Deepest desires mm-hmm right. When we think about BDSM, you know, we understand that there's an element of, of sensation and or pain. Right. And so when you, you're kind of playing in that space, you're. Allowing your body to reframe your understanding of what pain might be. you're allowing yourself to have experiences that in a safe context can be like tremendously cathartic mm-hmm And again, maybe not ever end up in like a sexual act. Right. But just a space where you're like, I want to feel something, you know,

Val: 20:36

and from what I understand control as well, having a different idea about control or who you give control to or

Kat: 20:44

right.

Val: 20:45

What you're in control of.

Kat: 20:46

yeah. So zooming out a bit like the kink space. And again, I'm not saying that I know everything, I'm just sharing some of my, like my knowledge and my own curiosities here. But, I read this really cool book. I'm still working my way through it, but it's called radical ecstasy. And then there's another book that is really interesting to me. It's called ethical slut and it's creating. Language and a culture of like consent and self awareness. And that's what else is really, really cool. Like I think that. this space where you have permission to explore whatever your curiosity is, there's lots of people who have done lots and lots of work to like train people about what does consent mean? What does creating like a scene mean? You have to know yourself pretty well to

Val: 21:30

to answer all those questions

Kat: 21:31

Yeah. And it's, again, it's one of those things that in mainstream culture, people are not doing Right, because you're not self aware or you are just sort of like, oh, this person likes me and oh, I'm kind of a people pleaser and oh, I'm gonna like, you know, kind of move down that path. Right. There's all these other kinds of ways that people have sexual experiences, but like in these spaces, it's very intentional, which I think is so beautiful.

Val: 21:56

When you're talking, I'm like, yeah, because purity culture, you have to play hard to get, or no doesn't really mean, no, we do have a very strong, What's the opposite of consent culture, right. Even to the point where I've started asking people like, oh, Hey, you know, I'm going through something you, have the space to hear this? Or even like can I ask this question? Not even assuming that like I can, I'm not. Demanding this information from someone, right. Just that consent. So I said this before in the podcast, when I was listening to a lot of your dating stories that you were checking in with people that you were meeting up with, and there was so much talk ahead of time, which seems to go against this mainstream idea we have about this spontaneous sex that just happens. And doesn't seem like a lot of consent is happening

Kat: 22:45

right. And you know, there's some discussion about that. Like, I can imagine a scenario where like, someone doesn't wanna do all those things, but they're already in a a relationship with each other. Right. And so maybe you don't have to be as hyper vigilant about it, but. But again with my past trauma experiences, I'm really attracted to a space that is super communicative, super consent forward. Mm-hmm you check in about every single possible thing you can think of to check in. Right. Because what you're trying to do is create a positive experience for you and the other people that you're engaging with, you know So, you know, like kink is as diverse as all of humanity is diverse. Right? And I would say you zoom out more like sexuality is as diverse as all of humanity is diverse. Mm-hmm And so when you give yourself permission to live outside of shame, and you're just like, Hey, Oh, my God, I'm a sexual being. Right. and then what I've noticed is that I think in, in sexual spaces, there's a growing movement of like sexual magic and sex healing, which I think is profound and amazing and wonderful.

Val: 23:47

Can you imagine our 21 year old selves, if we told them that we were gonna be talking about sexual healing?

Kat: 23:52

Well,

Val: 23:53

outside of purity culture I

Kat: 23:54

know, I know.

Val: 23:56

I do believe that every positive experience we have with another human being can be corrective, can be healing right. For the trauma we've had. And just like those things you share they're very intimate and can be very healing or magical. Right. And I mean, why not? Like. People talk about other kinds of orgasms, like, like joking around like like a food gasm right. Or we, this is so, oh my gosh. It's so cheesy.

Kat: 24:22

Well, come on. I

Val: 24:22

Bible college. we used to talk about a harm Agam where like the harmonizing of people's voices. I mean, I still stand by this. Sure. But just that feeling that like euphoria, it is it's this transformative feeling or experience. Right.

Kat: 24:36

Yeah So. and it feels spiritual. It does And transformative, it feels like metaphysical sometimes. Like it's an elevation

Val: 24:43

an elevation. Well that's a good

Kat: 24:44

word, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So we can experience that in all kinds of context. Right. So it's funny that yeah, gasm on the end of other words. Sure, sure. Yeah. So the harm Agam is that what you said? Mm-hmm There's so many ways we experience this is what I've discovered. Right? So I still experience stuff like that. In meditation. We had experiences like that when we were in charismatic spaces, during an altar call, right. Church where people are like praying for each other. We used to have experiences where someone would like lay hands on you and you get like slain in this. Spirit mm-hmm like, that was a very heightened metaphysical experience for me quite often. Like you can have visions, you can have prophecies, like all those things make you feel connected to something much larger than just yourself. Right I think

Val: 25:24

that's part of the.

Kat: 25:26

Of course it

Val: 25:27

Yes The the people that were the most into that stuff Yes yes,

Kat: 25:32

yes, And so that's what I've noticed is. I've had these sort of experiences, in meditation or on retreats sometimes. But then when I started having sex with queer people, I was noticing that I could get into a head space that felt. Like these other experiences you know one of the things in a kinky dynamic, you can have like, this fun playing with power, people are using terms like top or bottom. And so it doesn't even really have to be about like sexual positions, but it's just like, who is holding this space and they're like the top they're holding the, power position. And then the other person it's really interesting. It gives you permission to relinquish control and just like, And then to be having like a really charged sexual experience while also like letting go of everything can take you into what's known as subspace and it's like a euphoria. It's a really. Brilliant. Cool. Kind of euphoria. And in some people's play this isn't my personal experience. I haven't explored this very much, but in some people's play, you can get a kind of euphoria from intense sensation. Right. So that would be like people wanting to use you know, like. Whips and things like that. Like I can hear myself be a little shy about it still. that's not super where I have played yet, but again, it's just, it's like to allow your body to have these sort of experiences that just sort of heighten everything. The, the human body can do. Cool. Amazing

Val: 26:56

shit. Why do people do a polar plunge?

Kat: 26:58

exactly right. Yeah. When we push ourselves to any kind of extreme what our physical bodies will do as a result, equal a state of euphoria can catapult us into a sensation of like, wow, every it's much larger than just me. Mm-hmm And somehow you're connected to everything in the cosmos, because, of something that you've. you've done in your body, you know, in, even like in some indigenous communities, you know, we know about like sweat, is it sweat, lodge? Mm-hmm yeah, like they, they do like an intense ceremony and they allow their body to experience some amount of what we would call suffering. Mm-hmm in order to overcome it in order to get to the other side of it. And it's really beautiful. Again, in kink spaces people will agree on the kinds of exchange that they want to have. And then lot of emphasis on after. And that's so beautiful cuz you just had really big, sometimes cathartic experience. And then the people that you're engaging with everyone is informed like, well, what do you need for aftercare? What kind of things You know? And some people might say, I'm probably gonna need to be like. Tucked in and lay like in a bed by myself for a little while. Some people are like, oh, I'm gonna want to be held. And like softly petted, I'm gonna need this kind of music. I'm gonna need this amount of quiet. Right? Like you have to know yourself. Right. And you get to

Val: 28:17

just amaz I'm just amazed. I'm just amazed. Right. Because it's just like, that's amazing. Yeah. Like just in general for communications, for relationships. Yeah. Right. Thinking about. About even just what you'll need after the act, not just the act. And I think that's what maybe mainstream culture says about sex anyway. Right. It's all about that. Act the climax and then like, whatever. Right? The joke is that someone's gonna fall asleep It's beautiful. The care and the thought and the intentionality. Yeah. In.

Kat: 28:45

Absolutely. Yeah. And again, sometimes this is including what we would think of as sex acts and sometimes it's not. But ultimately what the, kink community or the leather community is, creating our, our safe places to kind of explore, you know? And then it's interesting because as I've done a lot of work around radical self. Acceptance. I look back on our time in evangelical culture and I realize I was constantly trying to repent away my own shadow side to strive and strive and strive to be so. Fucking good to honor God to be like, Jesus was to be perfect. Right? You've got perfectionism and like the good, bad binary and all these things. And then as I moved towards radical self acceptance, I started to make peace with my own shadow side. Right. And it, it might be like a darker impulse, but it also is just. I can fail at things. I can be bad at stuff. My house can be perpetually messy and I'm not somehow morally inept because of that. Right. Mm-hmm and then again, in my ADHD diagnosis, that helped me so much to be like, oh, this is just a cool part of me that has some strengths, but it has some like weaker areas too. But see, I am done. trying to eradicate that fucking shit. Right. And so I've noticed in my like own sexual awakening, I get to do shadow work. I get to integrate all of me. I don't have to be a good

Val: 30:11

Mm-hmm

Kat: 30:12

Mm-hmm fuck that. Right. But also I have a praise king, so praise me, praise me. Praise me. cuz I love that shit.

Val: 30:20

is that that's a thing. Is that a

Kat: 30:21

It's a thing. Everything's a thing, Val.

Val: 30:23

I know But did you make that up or someone else

Kat: 30:25

did not make that up.

Val: 30:26

up Okay Yeah Well, I could see that Sure, sure. Yeah. That's

Kat: 30:31

funny. I know Yeah but it's great space too. Like. I think that I have a deep commitment at this point to be all the way me, right. To find every avenue of self-expression that exists because there's something in me that just wants. Well, I think it is it's the years of living in a. Like a contained space that allowed little freedom and little self-expression and then to like kind of break out of it. And then suddenly the whole cosmos is open to

Val: 31:02

us. Mm

Kat: 31:03

And so that, that kind of freedom and exploration is, is enthralling. You know? Yeah. And you know, it's not to say that I've done things perfectly or like that I'm perfectly out there in, in the dating world we're still learning and making mistakes all the time. All of us as humans, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's the other thing too, is I've noticed in some of these circles, there's like a beautiful Space for repair too, you know, and I just think that's amazing. And again, I think it's amazing that like all of these skills are being taught and practiced in a context that our mainstream culture poo poos and makes fun of as though these are deviance. And yet these are the most present. Groups of people I've ever encountered.

Val: 31:46

Yeah. Yeah.

Kat: 31:47

And there's still, I mean, again, and everyone's still human, like there's not the expectation of perfectionism and I, I think that that's fucking beautiful too.

Val: 31:55

Well, I mean, let's talk about if you wanna be authentic. And vulnerable your goal can't be perfection, right? Mm-hmm you have to know that you're messy and you're imperfect and leaving space where I think in the culture that we grew up in. There was no room for

Kat: 32:11

you were gonna go to hell, fuck it. God damn it. If you make too many mistakes and then you die, you're gonna go to hell But

Val: 32:17

even just like the shame that would come or the separation or lose your job if you had any sexual mistakes. Right. I'm just saying that's the very present ones like, oh, you're gonna lose all your friends, all your community, because cuz of that

Kat: 32:32

yeah. I mean, I used to have a lot of really close friends from Bible college. I have one or two friends left because I have changed so much, but like, I feel like I've come home to myself, the people who I connect with now, and I meet now get to know like the most authentic Catherine there's ever been. Right. And that feels really good, but it is hard that like that worldview wouldn't. Me maintain relationship with a lot of people. they don't have space in their worldview for me to be gay for me to be non monogamous. Sure. You know, for me to be all these things, cuz we were fucking taught really very clearly. This is the devil, right? This is sin. I don't believe in sin at all. Yeah, fuck that. No, because again, I love the idea of shadow work and like the imagery of the yang and the yang and that beautiful symbol. Right. I realized that I spent all of my life trying to eradicate all the shadow. Right. We were sort of taught

Val: 33:26

that in our culture. Yeah.

Kat: 33:27

and then you cannot possibly center yourself if you're trying to live just wholly in the light, cuz you're repressing and repressing and repressing. Yeah. The dark. That just is a part of

Val: 33:38

It's just there

Kat: 33:39

Yeah. And so like when you allow for both and you engage in like self-acceptance, then you start to come into your own and then suddenly learning how to center yourself. Isn't so fucking but if you're only light and only love you can't quite find your center. Yeah. Yeah. I, I lived that way for so many,

Val: 33:59

Mm.

Kat: 34:01

Yeah. And in some ways I was kind of good at it. Right. It's really But eventually my body was like, let's try

Val: 34:09

isn't Cause it takes a lot of energy repress. to ignore. Yeah. And numb.

Kat: 34:16

Right. I feel so happy to be like, again, these, parts of me are not my whole identity, but it feels really good to be able to explore and, to like really not have shame a part of it. You know, it feels really good to be raising my kids where okay. This story. Oh my gosh. Both of my kids will like happily watch plenty of YouTube and I am okay with that. I'm comfortable with them. Following their own curiosity. And my older kid is 12 and you know, is in middle school and is coming home with some, words and things that I can tell his kid is like trying them out, you know? Wow. And so I can't remember at one point we're like in the car and they said something like something like you're a ho. And I was like, do you know what that means? And they're like I, think it means you couldn't be that anyway. I, think it means it's someone that like and they didn't really know what it was. They, they knew it was a little bit derogatory. They didn't know why. Right. And so I explained, yeah, people use that to shame people who have they go on lots of dates and they have lots of partners and then he was like, oh, that couldn't be you. And I was like, actually yes, I do go on lots of dates. Right. And so they. They were like, this is new information you know, cuz I, I don't have my kids all the time. They get to go yeah. Be with their great parent, their dad So I've had a lot of freedom to date, you know? It was really, really amazing to be

Val: 35:33

he's like my mom is a

Kat: 35:34

okay you would be so surprised, but it was such a happy day for me. Yeah. To be like, yeah, your mom goes on dates with lots of people. Right. As many as I can get. Getting to raise my children. In a context that is, you know, extremely sex positive, and there's no morality around how much experience someone may or may not have. You know, also there's plenty of space for people to not be sexual. You know, like asexuality is a real valid way to live your life. You don't have to be as curious as I am about all these things, you get to, again, All I want for all of us is to just know ourselves, to be kind to ourselves and then to have the freedom to follow the curiosity. Right. Yeah. And then it doesn't happen instantaneously. Yeah. Like once I started to realize, I want, you know, these kinds of relationships in my life, they didn't show up, then it manifest immediately, but they're manifesting, they're showing up and that feels really, really good. We

Val: 36:27

GA thanks for leading this conversation. I was like, oh, you wanna talk about sex? Yeah. You're in charge today. Yeah, I like this. I appreciate the conversation because. I just think it's great for us to be talking more about sex. Like we're having it. We're not having it it's a part of life. It's a part of who we all are. Like you said to varying degrees and it's all okay.

Kat: 36:47

Yeah. I think sex is a really fun way to explore, you know, getting for me. It's been really, really fun for me. I'm having a fucking great time.

Val: 36:58

Well, you know what you know, going against my stereotype or my type casting here as a therapist, one day I was like, you gotta put your big girl panties on, you gotta talk about sex. Like, is it awkward? Not, you know, sometimes I'll just joke about, like, I don't know if you wanna talk about sex with your therapist, or this is, you know, weird, but like, Definitely. You're talking about pleasure. I talk about orgasms and like totally. We've talked about creativity coming through orgasm and just that, that is a part of any other kind of release or stress release or

Kat: 37:26

just like

Val: 37:27

self-care self-care

Kat: 37:28

Like regular masturbation as part of normal

Val: 37:30

self care. Selfcare yeah. Yes exactly. So see, are you proud of me for

Kat: 37:35

yeah. Are you, practicing what you preach? That's what I wanna know. Val

Val: 37:39

Oh,

Kat: 37:40

the time.

Val: 37:40

am.

Kat: 37:44

I love you so much. I can see that. You're not gonna answer right question. I love you. Good job, Val, you made a lot of

Val: 37:49

job I made, it through

Kat: 37:50

there You did. We did it.

Val: 37:52

And I like to joke about it, but I'm so glad we're having these conversations. It's so good. Yay. Thanks. Thanks friends and listeners. I forget coming on

Kat: 38:01

this journey with bye

Val: 38:02

right.