Vulnerability

Kat and Val go really deep this episode as Kat dives into the questions “What is moving around for you”. This week our hosts acknowledge, that vulnerability is risky, and yet, finding a kind witness to our most intimate experiences of growth and healing can transform us as individuals and our relationships with others.

*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat: 0:33

Good

Val: 0:34

Good morning. Good morning.

Kat: 0:35

Hi, Val.

Val: 0:36

Hi cats.

Kat: 0:39

I am very grateful to be in your home today. it was hard to get out of

Val: 0:44

my neighborhood.

Kat: 0:44

Yeah. I love it here. It was very hard to get out of my bed. I got my kids up and out for school today, which was pretty easy. Yeah, no, they're doing so good. The kids are doing so good about that. We started back at school obviously and yeah. And then I was like, Fuck. And I crawled right back in my bed and I was like, oh my God. And it is one of those things where I, I was like, oh my God, I think I need some dopamine or something. Like usually podcast day is my most favorite day. And so I'm always energized on podcast day. Yeah. So to be. I wanna hide under my covers indefinitely. And it was also podcast day. I was like, oh no, existential crisis.

Val: 1:31

poor widow, cat.

Kat: 1:32

I know. So I called you and what did I ask you? What I ask

Val: 1:36

said yell at me. So I get out of my bed. And then you're like yell a

Kat: 1:40

harder.

Val: 1:41

I was like, oh geez, you want dopamine? Don't you? Yes,

Kat: 1:46

you? mean, you taught us all these good tricks about how to get dopamine sometimes. Oh my God. That's hilarious. I'm

Val: 1:54

actually really impressed and proud of you. Because you. We're able to get what you need. You're like, I need another human to like intervene into my cocooning. I'm gonna cocoon in 3, 2, 1. And you stopped to process yourself so well done. Well, that's a really good skill.

Kat: 2:12

Oh, thank you. I have gotten, I have gotten pretty okay at like, asking for help when I need it, but it just was honestly like dis unsettling. It was unsettling. I didn't like it. That I was. I don't think I'm doing great today. And the truth is, is.

Val: 2:28

is that

Kat: 2:30

Today. We're gonna talk about vulnerability and I

Val: 2:35

It's your favorite topic, KA. Well, okay. Also, this is what I love about you. And I'm also puzzled by quite honestly, cuz you're like I could barely get outta bed. Some stuff swooping around for me. I, I think I could tell by your face, you've got some, some heavy emotions inside. You're like, so let's just go and talk about vulnerability but I think, you know, the release is good too, but

Kat: 2:59

I know, well, I don't know what I think that might be like my fire sign, like, right. So I have like all, all my signs are fire signs. Yeah. Oh my God. Astrology. So

Val: 3:10

just running well, and you also,

Kat: 3:11

so you run into it. That's what I'm saying. I have a tendency to run into shit, which Anyway. Yeah. You know, so this is three questions with cat and Val. And so our three questions are, you know, what's bringing you pleasure. What are you learning? And I love those questions and I really also love what is moving around for you. But sometimes when, what is moving around for us is. Is the hard and the deep yeah. You're like, come on, motherfucker. Yeah. Like again, really still more what,

Val: 3:41

more? Yeah. More healing.

Kat: 3:43

Yeah.

Val: 3:44

shifting.

Kat: 3:45

Yeah. And so, you know, last week we talked about like, you know, the title of last week's episode is family ties. And we, we spent like a long time talking about family war and stuff. Right. Yeah. And I like. Had that moment in the last episode where I, like, I started to cry a little bit, cuz everybody knows now that I cry like a motherfucker, but like I was like, oh yeah, I remember like I was kind of young and I made this vow to myself

Val: 4:09

before

Kat: 4:09

all of, all of the trauma, all the bullshit, all of the, the family of origin stuff. It stops, it stops with me. And so. I'm 44, right? I'm gonna be 45 this year.

Val: 4:22

Mm-hmm

Kat: 4:22

I was, I was in my late teens when I made this kind of like, really significant, like vow to myself and I have been like incredibly diligent about my own,

Val: 4:36

healing.

Kat: 4:36

More so than most humans I've ever interacted with, I've been like, this is the thing that I have got to do. I just want to be whole right. Mm-hmm And several years ago I was like, Hey, I am whole, now I just have to feel all of my goddamn mother fucking feelings And so I've made this commitment to myself, like to like, you know, to live in this amount of authenticity and to.

Val: 5:03

not

Kat: 5:04

be constantly relying on these old coping mechanisms. He served me for a while. Mm-hmm one of the biggest ones was being pleasing, you know? And so I feel also frustrated. Like there's still all the normal human stuff that shows up in me. Like, I, I do feel like I'm whole, but like somehow talking about family boards and stuff, it just, I don't know. It was like, I'm so mad about it. because I wanted it to be all healed and tied up with a pretty bow Val. Yeah.

Val: 5:35

And

Kat: 5:35

It, it feels frustrating to me to be like, what? It's, there's still pockets of pain. Come on. And so that's I'm, I don't want that to be how it is. I, I want it to be like, we heal it all the way and we're thorough and we're kind to ourselves and we live in self compassion. This is all this shit I really do. And I really practice. So, so why Valerie

Val: 6:04

oh boy.

Kat: 6:05

why is there still more? Why is

Val: 6:07

this works?

Kat: 6:08

Do you have any, do you have any thoughts on that?

Val: 6:11

fuck

Kat: 6:12

cute.

Val: 6:14

You know

Kat: 6:14

you relate to that frustration though?

Val: 6:16

you know, it's so interesting. We've been doing this podcast, the episodes that I was more concerned about. I'm like, okay, that wasn't so bad. And, and I felt good about them, you know, I was just looking on, on social media this morning and what I'm noticing a lot. And again, right. People and their messages and, and, and saying something that's interesting. I just see a lot of people thought leaders. I don't even know if they're healers, but they're talking a lot about like, Hey, you don't always have to be healing. Yeah. Like stop this. Like, you know, you're okay. Right. Like, and, and, and actually this one was very nuanced, but it was like, Hey, you. It's just gonna happen naturally from now on. And so it was very, no, it's not you're wrong. so to be here today, I know, you know, in the last episode two, you talked about just Well, and we're gonna talk about vulnerability, but just that like openness that you're, you know, I think you were recalling back to how I seem to come undone during music sometimes, and just being very sensitive and open and feeling and I do wonder if that's part of it that you are creating a space where, well, you said you, you vowed to yourself. I need to feel all my fucking feelings. So I don't know. I mean, I always talk about healing is layers and yeah. Pockets. I kind of like that, that too.

Kat: 7:39

Yeah. I've been watching stuff recently. Maybe these are mostly like Instagram and tos, but like people are talking about like how, you know, somatic therapy, like sometimes pain is lodged on our body. Right. And then I've been trying to move my body in ways that are you know, helping it, you know, Have have more range of motion and things like that. And so then I just happened to see one today where like someone is like, you know, trying to do this like deep hip stretch to unlock inner healing so they can finally heal. And I definitely hear what you're saying about like, we don't have to be constantly healing all the time. And, and I would say that this happened organically where I was like, dude, to do. I'm good. I'm good. And then all of a sudden, you know, our conversation, it feels like. One of the things out of a, a little series of things that sort of poked at some just old things.

Val: 8:29

Yeah.

Kat: 8:30

And I just, I think that I have to now, like we even had an episode on re resistance and I was like, I have to acknowledge how deep my own resistance is to this reality. The reality being there is there are still within me, places that feel extremely tender and relate all the way back to family boards and stuff. And. That's that's okay. It's it's not pleasant cuz

Val: 8:59

Mm-hmm

Kat: 9:00

in some ways my resistance is the, the safety mechanism of like

Val: 9:05

ow,

Kat: 9:05

OE.

Val: 9:06

this is as much as I can handle.

Kat: 9:08

Yeah. And like, Hey motherfucker. I thought you know, like again, like a coping mechanism, one of mine is like, Hey, I'm an, a student in my own healing. Right. And I'm like, I, eh, I tried my best you know, like. I thought I did all this already. And so when there's still more, that shows up, I'm like, come on, like, you know, Everybody's got their sad story. If, if I'm working this hard to try to be, you know, whole what the fuck, the whole Y of humanity, every evolve I zoom out too much and I'm like, and then comes to despair.

Val: 9:48

fair. Yeah. Oh yeah, no, no. Zoom back in cat. zoom back in. It's too much. It's too

Kat: 9:53

much.

Val: 9:54

too much. Yeah. Maybe there's some resistance of like, wow, I've worked so hard. Yeah. I've, I've gone through the pain of healing. Yeah. I, I resist the idea that there's more, or that I'll be affected again. This was supposed to be healed up.

Kat: 10:12

yeah. So yes, exactly. That like, that's exactly what's happening. And then what, one of the things that, like I noticed, like really started to like push against that resistance. This is a few weeks ago now. There is a, like a, a person in the public eye. I don't wanna name who they are.

Val: 10:29

but

Kat: 10:30

there's someone who I followed their work for a long time and I respect them. And in some ways I really identify with them. Mm-hmm and they were recently sharing that they've got like, they're probably in their fifties. I think that they they decided to like get involved in a 12 step program that they felt like they needed to. And I was like, what the fuck? Cause I was like, Good for you, but also like I thought, I, I thought we heal. I thought we heal enough. I thought that at 50, in our fifties, we won't still be stumbling into something where you're like, oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta do this still pro 12 step program. You know what I mean? Like.

Val: 11:13

work to do

Kat: 11:15

Big work. I, I just, it, it really discombobulated me cuz I, I was like smooth sailing.

Val: 11:23

Oh.

Kat: 11:23

that's what I thought.

Val: 11:25

Oh, maybe it's resistance to the, like the, the future of smooth sailing.

Kat: 11:31

I want

Val: 11:32

to believe,

Kat: 11:33

I mean, so what it is is it's challenging a belief, right? Yeah. It's challenging a deeply held belief that maybe was a little bit unconscious. Like I didn't necessarily know that I was like, this is my worldview know, like, I, I, I do all this. I lean in, I press in hard. We're gonna be whole, we're gonna heal. We're gonna cultivate community. We're gonna have the life we want. And then you get to reap the benefits of that, which does not include another crisis that eventually you. And I need to go to a 12 step program. It's not that it nullifies all the other work, but I guess I. I think the emotion I was feeling was like, does that nullify everything else? Oh, you see what I'm saying?

Val: 12:11

yeah,

Kat: 12:12

I feel bad that I had these perfectionist ideas. There were sneaky little motherfuckers they're in there and then they're getting challenged. I'm getting all like discombobulated, mad.

Val: 12:23

I mean, not to dig at you anymore, but

Kat: 12:26

but

Val: 12:27

I'm wondering, and I'm just wondering if, because it's part of your identity. Right. It's part of your identity that like I am the healer, I have healed myself. Yeah. But I wonder if that challenges your, your identity, I decided to really hyperfocus on my development

Kat: 12:43

and.

Val: 12:45

Oh,

Kat: 12:45

and oh fuck. Yeah. Like, I mean, honestly, there's been several points in my life where it feels like the floor falls out. And so then you are like, what And so I guess to be really vulnerable, you know, like I wanna be someone that really is. Living and practicing, you know, all the things that I say, right. That's important to me. Mm-hmm And so I know that I have done a lot of work to get to this point. I know that I have healed significantly and I have beautiful, healthy relationships in my life. And I, you know, I have a really strong relationship with my children and genuine mean like those things are true, but I think when, when older pain is unearthed, And you feel like a child all over again, you know, you feel small and you feel scared. Like the big really, really like base feelings. It can, it can make me feel like. Oh, my God has, has any of this been

Val: 13:53

real works real mm-hmm

Kat: 13:55

Yeah. And so in that, and it feels like a crisis to have that, that much emotion just show up, you know, and Yeah. And so like in those moments, the zooming out is what's the most helpful, right? Of like, okay,

Val: 14:13

yeah, this

Kat: 14:13

the first time I'm like, this has happened. Mm-hmm it's just that I thought, I don't know, Val. I thought we get to a place where we, where this stops being part of the story and maybe that just is wrong. Maybe it's just wrong about that. I had a belief that was kind of an unchecked belief right.

Val: 14:30

Ah,

Kat: 14:31

perfectionism and, or. I shouldn't have to deal with this fucking shit anymore.

Val: 14:37

yeah. Or maybe even like the reason why you work so hard to heal is so that the rest of your life can be UN painful. Yeah. Or like you're done with it. Yeah. Let me, maybe the belief is I did all this hard work. Yeah. So that the rest of the time I don't have to,

Kat: 14:51

yeah.

Val: 14:51

could, it could be less pain. Well, sure. Yeah, sure. Of course. Of course, that sounds perfectly logical.

Kat: 15:00

Like I have you know, you watch TV or movies or whatever, and you watch you know, folks who are, you know, our age, but their parents are still an active parental role in their life as opposed to like my whole life. I, I didn't feel like my parents were very Per parental mm-hmm, you know, mm-hmm I was you know, fiercely independent at a young age cuz I kind of had to be. And so I didn't really grow up with that. Like the, the, the feeling of like an older wiser person has got

Val: 15:26

mm mm.

Kat: 15:29

And that that's, what's showing up. And I remember just months, months ago watching a movie and. Someone was sort of talking about feeling orphaned. And I was like, that's so interesting. I have no desire for that role to be filled and I was like, oh, I've evolved so far. I don't need a parent And so that's not, not true, but also I think it's the both and right of like, I

Val: 16:04

hadn't,

Kat: 16:06

I don't know, sat with this in a long, long time. So I didn't see

Val: 16:11

it mm-hmm

Kat: 16:12

so it didn't feel like a reality that I was, you know, wrestling with. And then I don't know, very old grief showed up. Right. And I think that's, what's really interesting about our own healing journey is like when you're a child. You're gonna do whatever you need to do to survive. And so one of my coping mechanisms, one that many of us use is you just, you bury shit and you find a way to move through. And so I chose to be pleasing and it worked, it served me for many years, but then to undo that and to like, Integrate. And so that's what I feel like is happening. Like even this morning, actually, when I was showering there was just some old, some imagery of like where I had buried rage because it wasn't, I couldn't, there was no safe outlet for it. So I had to bury it as a young young kid.

Val: 17:07

Mm.

Kat: 17:08

And so I, it showed up in one of my meditations as like this ward hog actually. And along with like a child, a younger version of me and today in the shower, I I, I saw that those were two parts of the same and I was like, oh, that needs to be integrated. You know, it's just messy.

Val: 17:32

though.

Kat: 17:34

Yes. And then it feels so fucking tender. And here we are like, again, the subject is vulnerability and I think this is why I wanted to start off with that today was that, I don't know if it's just how I'm wired. It's not comfortable to be this vulnerable. It's not, it's uncomfortable.

Val: 17:51

Mm-hmm

Kat: 17:52

but I have learned enough to know that, like to say things out loud and to have a kind witness to what is uncomfortable. Helps it, it makes us feel less alone and it I don't know. I, again, like, I I'm resistant to like trying to find some, some math equation or to make it pretty, cuz it's not pretty right now. Mm-hmm doesn't feel pretty right. So vulnerability is not pretty and it's not, it's a practice that adds richness and depth to our relationships. Mm-hmm

Val: 18:24

and it

Kat: 18:25

It's fucking risky, you know,

Val: 18:28

It is risky it's

Kat: 18:29

it's and brave,

Val: 18:31

mm-hmm yeah. Yeah.

Kat: 18:34

But if we, if we want a life where we feel like we're able to show up all the way with ourselves and tell the truth to ourselves and then share that with other people.

Val: 18:47

Mm.

Kat: 18:47

don't know. I still, I think this, this is not very eloquent, but these are the choices that I've made. I, this is I'm too committed to the life that I want to stop risking shit now. Mm mm.

Val: 19:03

when you were talking about burying rage and you were talking about pockets, I guess I just wondered is that sort of a great picture for what you're experiencing, that you had to bury things and, and as you're healing, and as time goes on, these little things you've buried are kind of popping up and these pockets. You know, are showing up

Kat: 19:26

yeah, yeah.

Val: 19:28

And they're kind of coming up in, in different times.

Kat: 19:32

It's interesting too, cuz things are, you know, we're really skilled at finding a way to survive hard shit, you know? And so some of this stuff is just. So far down there, you know, and then it does require a lot of time and attention and effort and stillness in order to like, make it emerging even possible, you know?

Val: 19:55

Well, I think that is the hard work that you are committed to is to make space for it. Yeah. For these things to emerge.

Kat: 20:02

Yeah. But also it was really funny to realize how like pissed off I was, that it existed still, you know?

Val: 20:12

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well now you're releasing that rage. You have the space. Yeah. To be able to release

Kat: 20:18

live on air

Val: 20:23

well,

Kat: 20:24

it's not exactly live, but like, it's funny that I'm like, it feels, it is a little weird to be like, this does feel like a conversation I would have with a therapist. And I'm like, it's funny that we're it. oh, Jesus.

Val: 20:40

Well, since you're laughing, it's a good place to stop for commercials. Mm.

Kat: 20:44

Mm. Good idea. Yeah, let's stop

Val: 20:46

okay. That felt good. It felt good in your body. Am I rushing commercials again? When you're all vulnerable?

Kat: 20:52

Oh

Val: 20:52

Okay. We'll we'll take a break for commercials. We'll come back and we'll get right back into talk more about vulnerability.

Kat: 20:59

be Val's turn.

Val: 21:02

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Kat: 21:20

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Kat: 21:32

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Val: 21:58

Okay, we're back. And one thing I was gonna say, yeah, and I was like, no, Val end on the end on the laughter

Kat: 22:04

then say

Val: 22:05

a, a touching thing.

Kat: 22:07

Oh. A touching thing.

Val: 22:08

but I guess so I know that what, what, you're the trigger from last episode was that you said, well, this, this ends with me, right. And I guess I just want to say, I recognize that I really think you've done that.

Kat: 22:20

Yeah. It's funny. You just said this sentence and it just, my eyes just welled with tears,

Val: 22:26

mm,

Kat: 22:26

the

Val: 22:28

like

Kat: 22:29

the magnitude of it, you know, I feel like it's, there's just this like energy in my body that like,

Val: 22:36

it's

Kat: 22:37

A lot had to end with me. It's a little bit bigger than my, my immediate family of origin. It it's their family and their parents and their parents. And

Val: 22:45

there's so

Kat: 22:46

much right.

Val: 22:48

Ugh.

Kat: 22:49

since I was pretty young, Val, I remember being like really intrigued by the question of suffering, right? Like why, why does suffering exist in the world? You know, and I remember I had an acquaintance, well, a friend really who I knew that they had lost a sibling.

Val: 23:07

Mm.

Kat: 23:07

And yeah, I was like seeking them out to have these conversations. I just wanted to understand, like, how did you cope or heal or what did that grief, how was that for you? And I, I don't know why I've always been so. Interested in that, you know, and like CS Lewis writes about it. It feels like this, like sort of one of those questions, many people like grapple with, you know, like what is the purpose of suffering in the world? You know? And Christianity said that suffering was a result of sin. And that doesn't resonate with me anymore.

Val: 23:37

Mm.

Kat: 23:38

And so now I feel like I have to find some new, you know, again, like if the idea of like, when you have a world, you are a belief system. This is what's interesting about beliefs is that when they're challenged and you're open and you're open to be like, well, maybe there is more information now. Right? So then to have.

Val: 23:57

to reorganize

Kat: 24:00

again, after you've had a challenge to a belief, you know can be jarring and painful right there after leaving fundamentalist, Christianity, and then Christianity together. I found myself really attracted to like Buddhist thought or doism and you know, some of these other really ancient worldviews and one of. Talks a lot about non-belief and so like being so open handed with everything that you you're open to, everything you believe, everything mm-hmm and you believe nothing at the same time. Mm-hmm which that really feels good to me because I feel like for me, it's the the pendulum and swing away from fundamentalism or dogmatic thinking. Yeah. And what's interesting is that. I think the human condition, we can't help ourselves from formulating beliefs. You know, like the belief that I obviously had of like, Hey, I do all this work, you know, I'm gonna be like, good, good to go. Now you know, like no more suffering.

Val: 25:01

Well, it helps us organize our experience and make sense of things. Right.

Kat: 25:05

Yeah. And I mean, maybe I'm not a very good, spokesperson for like inner healing. I'm like crying. I'm like, Ooh, it all hurts still. I'm like rah RA don't you wanna be healed too?

Val: 25:17

Well, I mean, that's, that's why I brought it back to you have disrupted those generational sufferings. Like you have yeah. Changed your children. I see them. Your children are experiencing you know, the love and the safety of childhood.

Kat: 25:32

Right, right.

Val: 25:33

You've done that work to disrupt that. Yeah.

Kat: 25:36

I just thought we get to an end point and maybe that's the belief that is being challenged.

Val: 25:42

Yeah.

Kat: 25:42

so the fact that I feel some grief and pain and discomfort now, and it's not small, I'm trying to like. Be able to still have a conversation, right. It's not small. Right. And so that's why it feels like a crisis mm-hmm So to find a new pocket, you know, there's some song about a pocket full of sunshine. I'm like motherfucker

Val: 26:07

I have a pocket full of trauma and grief and suffering in deep, deep, painful emotions. So take your pocket and shove it. oh, friend. You have left yourself vulnerable and open right. To, to feeling these things and. I mean, that's the essence of vulnerability in that, you know which is you're allowing yourselves to, you're taking your defenses down. right

Kat: 26:34

you say that again?

Val: 26:35

Well, to be vulnerable is to, is to allow your defenses to go down. Yeah. And you're making yourself well, we use the word vulnerable. I always love to look at a concrete, you know, example to kind of help us understand the emotional, but you leave, we leave yourself. Oh, you, you know that country left himself vulnerable to attack or, you know,

Kat: 26:54

mm-hmm.

Val: 26:55

The the, the new game of Thrones, a spinoff is just coming up and so such it castles with like moats and all that kind of stuff. Right? Like when you're vulnerable, your exposed you're open. And that can be painful.

Kat: 27:09

Yeah. It's interesting because you know, the more healing you do than you get to like, learn about good boundaries too. And so like the difference between like a coping mechanism, which is a fortress

Val: 27:20

Mm.

Kat: 27:21

and then healing enough so that you're like, oh, here are boundaries. And it's boundary is different than like creating a fortress where you, you, you. Wall yourself in, you know

Val: 27:33

yeah. You know, my work with couples, we talk a lot about defenses and sort of the things that stop Communication and getting to the, the meat of the matter. Right. Mm-hmm And so I just talk about, you know, defenses, they are just natural in all of us. Right. Like, and to continue the analogy like, oh, someone's coming in a distance put up the Drawbridge, like we don't know them. They could be friend or foe. Right. Like, like automatic. Like I think in the beginning I carried a lot of shame of like, oh, I don't know if I'm really enjoying my marriage, but I'm a marriage therapist, right? Like that pressure of like having a perfect relationship but even if you are trying to use all the tools you're teaching other people, we're just human and our natural impulse, our first response is to put up a defense when we're threatened. Yeah. Right. Shove it down. Or, or. Tell people the fuck off So like in, in, in working with couples, right, your partner comes and says like, ouch, or, Hey, this isn't working for me or, or I really have a hard time when this happens. Usually it's the automatic first I have to protect myself. You're telling me I'm bad. You're telling me I did something wrong. Right. You're this is, this is painful. I'm gonna have to look at myself. It's going to affect the way I see myself, my own ego. Right. To protect the way we see ourself, because we all wanna believe like, Hey, we're, we're okay. we're lovable. Right. I think a lot of it all goes back to that. So it's that practice of saying oh, okay. Recognizing that nonjudgmental noticing. Yeah. Oh, My partner's trying to gimme some information. Yeah. Or my friend is trying to, or my child or my parent.

Kat: 29:20

right, right.

Val: 29:21

Let me, let me put the defense down enough so I can take a peek. Right? So again, breaking the analogy. I love to beat an analogy to death. You know, we see someone coming, we put up the Drawbridge, but then like we have to at least open the people to see who it is. Cuz maybe they're bringing supplies. Maybe it's our friendly neighbor. Right. Or maybe it, it is an enemy. Right. And. And then maybe that's where we move to boundaries. Like, Nope, sorry, you can't treat me this way. But then we just lower that just a little bit to see like, Hmm. What are they talking about? Yeah. And then being able to. Handle we go back to distress tolerance. It doesn't feel great to have a mirror put up or someone to say, Hey, I don't really like when you do this or this hurts me. Or I think this is an area that is affecting our relationship

Kat: 30:07

right.

Val: 30:08

You're leaving yourself exposed.

Kat: 30:10

Mm. You know, I'm, I'm thinking about this analogy too, and seeing the picture it's so vivid, but like the other thing is, is that.

Val: 30:17

the

Kat: 30:18

reason why we actually want to choose vulnerability is because otherwise you're left in isolation. You know, if every, you know, everything that we could potentially understand is a threat, the Drawbridge goes up you're a fucking alone. You know? Yes. And that's the part, I think about, you know, the choices that I made, especially as it relates to family origin and the kind of boundaries that I do have. And then in, in present relationships in my life, I, I don't have anyone in my life. That's injuring me in those ways. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm, like, because I said, no. I said, no, I have boundaries to people. But in, in my own healing and like discovering this, pocket of pain or whatever, like I got off the phone with you and then I still was like, Messy. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And so I checked in with my other friend, who's a therapist

Val: 31:14

and we're gonna get by with a little help from our friends who are therapists

Kat: 31:18

of help of our friends. Yeah. It took me talking out loud with my other friend before I was like, oh shit, it was, it was a lot of pain. It was a pocket of pain. That's a really helpful, I'm glad we found that. Mm-hmm language for it. Mm-hmm because. And then I was re resistant in all these things, but then eventually I was like, oh fuck, there's a lie here. And so, like, I only had 10 minutes to talk to my friend, but I was like, I was like, God damnit, motherfucker. You know? And then I was laughing and I was like, I'm so resistant to feeling any of this. I'm so mad that this is actually here. I don't want it. These are the things I'm saying to my friend mm-hmm but I'm also. But God damn it. I feel better. like, I feel better cuz for whatever reason, the way I made, like I would much rather feel something, even if it's painful than to feel numb or feel nothing. That's why I spent all these years trying to heal because I don't like feeling alone. And the only way to not feel alone, Val is to find the safe people. yeah. And let the goddamn draw bridge down

Val: 32:19

but, and with safe people, they want you to be vulnerable too, right? Yeah. Cause if you wanna have a mutual relationship, right. Yeah. It's interesting. You took the straight line from vulnerability all the way to isolation, which I agree because I, I was talking to a client once. Their boyfriend and we're gonna talk about personality in the next couple episodes, but their partner was like at any gram nine, which is very, like, they're mergers. They don't wanna disrupt the piece. They have a hard time connecting to their own. They just want everyone else to be happy. And it was just so interesting that like that fear of upsetting people. Right, right. Was actually going to maybe isolate this person because their partner actually wanted them to be messy. They wanted to hear their emotions. They wanted them to speak up So it's just very interesting. What we think is gonna keep us safe or what we think is going to keep us at that homeostasis, that piece can actually isolate us. Right.

Kat: 33:10

Totally. Yeah.

Val: 33:11

This is something I say a lot is like, okay, when you're fighting, you're bickering with a partner, I always say, go, go a step deeper. What is it really about?

Kat: 33:19

Mm,

Val: 33:20

Okay. It's about, you don't want to do X, Y, Z. And, and if you can take the risk, so there's risk in vulnerability. Oh yeah. There's pain. Yeah. Because I think that we're also afraid that we're unlovable or that we don't like this thing about ourselves. But if you take that risk to go deeper, it's like, okay, you're mad that your partner's doing this, but what what's really underneath that. And that usually if you speak that and then if you have courage, let's say to actually tell your partner that Then you're bringing down the Drawbridge, right. Then you're exposing right yourself and you are allowing your partner to really know you better and understand what it actually is. That is upsetting you. Yeah.

Kat: 34:03

Well, thank you, Val, cuz this has been really helpful. and like it's funny lots of times we check in after, you know, we put an episode out and I just was like, fuck this was something that was a bit of a catalyst. And like again, unearthing a pocket of pain, which. Unbearable, but then it turns out the scariness, it's not actually unbearable. Right? And like, you know, you lower the Drawbridge and you let the safe people in and then you get to say out loud, whatever the hard thing is. And you're like, it starts to dissipate pretty quickly when you've got, when you're, when you're fortunate to have safe people in your life to look at it with you and hold space with you. Mm-hmm then. it makes the vulnerability worth it, you know, and again, like right now, sitting here at the table, I feel less alone than I did, like in my bed, just feeling like this sort of dread and, and like overwhelmed.

Val: 34:57

Mm-hmm

Kat: 34:58

and it, took you and another person. And then me deciding like, okay, I'm gonna look at this. I could have numbed out. I could have just like made some other choices, you know, and, and I'm not saying that those are always bad to do, you know, sometimes you just gotta fucking put it on the side burner and get through whatever you use urgent to do. Right. And we've all done that. That's, that's an okay thing to do, but. Sometimes when we have the spaciousness for it, like to actually meet it where it is, and, and be present with what shows up for us. And then again, the deep practice of authenticity and vulnerability is, is choosing to allow this safe relationship in your life to witness you

Val: 35:37

mm-hmm

Kat: 35:38

to hold space for you and ultimately to make you feel less alone.

Val: 35:42

Yeah. It's a. Rewarding risk when, done with safe people and or even just trusting yourself that you can expose some of the parts of you that are tender, but like those, like our private parts are more, sensitive. We have to treat them more with care, right? Like. I have a neighbor who, who naked water skis. And I don't really understand why that's a good idea. cause there's some real vulnerable parts

Kat: 36:11

that

Val: 36:11

I think really should maybe have a little more coverage.

Kat: 36:14

Right.

Val: 36:15

So those vulnerable parts we treat with more care, right. And so we know that there's a bigger risk when we expose them. Right. That's where the deep work comes in our relationships and our relationship to ourself is when we're like, okay, I know I'm exposing this more vulnerable, more delicate thing. And that brings up a whole bunch of feelings. The price of, of vulnerability, it can feel high, especially if we're not used

Kat: 36:38

to

Val: 36:39

revealing those more tender parts of ourselves and our emotions. Part of those more tender parts that we don't expose to everyone. Right? Those are real. Sometimes they're very private. Sometimes we talk about them on a podcast, but There's such reward in trusting yourself that you can, tolerate the distress that might come up. Yeah. About exposing the things about yourself that maybe you don't like as much, or these deep needs yeah. Or feelings or the ways you've been hurt, but the reward for that. Yeah. Especially interpersonally or the relationship with yourself can be so great.

Kat: 37:18

Well, I, I think that's the thing that keeps motivating me too, is the reward is then you're not alone. Right. And the beauty of like, I don't know why it's so important to me, but like the fact that I could really know myself feels powerful and big. And, and then so the quest to know myself fully and to be known right by people who I love and care about.

Val: 37:43

It's such a beautiful feeling I think that is that's at the core. I think of, most of us. There's a beautiful quote about the best way to love someone is to let them fully be themselves. Mm-hmm

Kat: 37:55

mm-hmm right, right. Yeah.

Val: 37:56

I think one of those questions that we're, we kind of all have, or this desire we have is like, am I acceptable and loving

Kat: 38:04

right.

Val: 38:05

as I am.

Kat: 38:06

Right. Fully. Yeah.

Val: 38:08

and all.

Kat: 38:08

Yeah. As I am. And frailed Al I think that's the other thing like to, to own that we have need, or that we still have pain or that we need, we need the extra care sometimes. Yeah. Thank you for providing extra care for me

Val: 38:21

Ah, extra care. Aw. Well thank you, KA for sharing. And dear friends.

Kat: 38:32

Good luck.

Val: 38:36

Just little encouragements, you know, if, you're wanting to try and be just a little bit more vulnerable than you usually are, you know, just start small, start with something that maybe you would think, but then you would stop yourself from sharing.

Kat: 38:47

Mm. Yeah.

Val: 38:48

maybe you're on the surface and you go, well, what's one level deeper, right? Or even just the first step of like who are the. Safe people in your life. Mm-hmm, that's important too, to know. Absolutely. Who do you share that with? Yeah, thanks for sharing cap. Love you.

Kat: 39:03

love me.

Val: 39:04

Bye. Love you. Bye