Boundaries-The Party Continues

Boundaries are lived out in human relationships. Kat and Val tell super fun stories about the humans in their world. They had a raucous party full of dear ones and can't stop laughing as they recap some highlights. Our hosts drop big wisdom as they dive into the deep end of their boundaries discussion. Hold on tight, this is a fun ride!

*The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only*

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. Well, hello, My dear friend. How are you?

Kat: 0:38

I was so good. It's so nice to see you.

Val: 0:40

good to see you I had to do a double-take I wasn't sure because somebody has a new hairdo,

Kat: 0:47

I shaved my hair.

Val: 0:50

cat, everybody cat shaved her head.

Kat: 0:54

Yeah, I did. I did. I had been thinking about it for a little while and then I just, okay, so I'm kind of impetuous, big surprise. Um, but this one was a big deal for me. Like I tell people like I'm kind of vain about my hair. And so when I came out as queer, I started really like having so much fun. I would bleach a lot, like shave the sides. I've always had different colors. And it was just like fun, creative, um, way to be in the world. And it felt really cool to be like, Ooh, look at me. Like I'm, I'm like visibly queer in a way that was super fun. Um, but also like my genetics or whatever, like my hair is thin and it's fine. And I started to be like self-conscious because I was like, I felt like I could like see my scalp through my hair. And I was like, I was aware of being self-conscious and I don't like to be self. And then in my story, I remember living in my fat body and being self-conscious of the body I live in. Right. And then I've also experienced living in the fat body that I live in and not being self-conscious and I know the fucking difference. And so I was like, well, if that's the thing I'm afraid of, I'm going to run at it. And so that's what I do.

Val: 1:59

you did,

Kat: 2:00

So, yeah. So. I was like, yo, I'm done. And I just, I shaved it all off. And, um, yeah, I mean, I think it looks kind of cool. It's an adjustment for sure. Like, I've been wearing this beanie constantly, cause it's like weirdly cold, even though it's like springtime.

Val: 2:16

I like calling you a, um, a bad ball bitch and you, and I love to tease you. because you were like, um, yeah, like now you were kinda like, now I'm living with the consequences of my bold decision now. I'm like, yup.

Kat: 2:29

oh

Val: 2:30

bad, bad. But just get, if you want to be a bad, bad bitch, you got to roll with the consequences.

Kat: 2:34

I do this thing where I throw myself so hard at stuff and then I'm like, Ooh, out to UCI, I'm exposed, I'm exposed. But then I just, I can't help myself. I love it.

Val: 2:43

And I love that. Like I'm, I'm so not like that.

Kat: 2:47

Like

Val: 2:47

I was just watching a video, you made. And I was like, oh man, I can't I'm having a hard time watching it. I can't even imagine that. the vulnerability that it would take to make that, because I could see my brain goes down to a million you know, miles ahead of like, Ooh, that's going to hurt. It's going to hurt later. Cause you're going to feel exposed. And so My brain is like, Hey danger, but we'll see. We'll see. are you, you'll probably rub off on me a little more. I might, I might take some chances

Kat: 3:13

just have these cute beanies. Like I'm like, I bought these cute hats and I'm like, oh, it's the thing. It's so funny. But like I knew when I bought this little beanie, it's like this great color. I have green glasses right now. And I was like, this is thing that I now own. That means I can shave my hair. I was cause I will just rock this cute hat and it looks again, like it looks very queer. And so I'm like, you know, presenting as queer in the world, which feels very good to me.

Val: 3:36

Um,

Kat: 3:37

But yeah, I was like, this hat is why I can shake my head. So I just racked the hat.

Val: 3:42

So fun. Well, speaking of fun,

Kat: 3:45

uh,

Val: 3:47

fun, times.

Kat: 3:48

party continues.

Val: 3:50

title of this episode is about. The

Kat: 3:52

party

Val: 3:52

continues. Cause we're going to talk more about boundaries. We had So much to say about boundaries, and also we continued

Kat: 4:00

party.

Val: 4:01

uh, We we just had ruffings birthday party this past weekend. And, um, there were a few surprises for him in this party. First of all, I came up with the idea of the theme because our neighbor just did an eighties theme party and refeed, lives for the eighties. You'll never get him to admit the eighties the best decade, whatever. so I said, well, I gotta come up with something else. So the theme was what would Rafeek wear? And so I encouraged everybody to just kind of step up their glam game and

Kat: 4:32

because we learned that he is a peacock, right? If you listened last week, you know, about peacocks and peacock relationships,

Val: 4:41

You got if you're in a peacock relationship. You got to give that peacock or runway. You got to give them a

Kat: 4:46

Oh, my gosh, you gave him the best stage and then everyone else got to dress it. Like, just bring it. And you didn't have to, if you don't want to. But like my group of friends that came, we were so pumped to have like an opportunity, like to like wear sequence or be like extra.

Val: 5:00

Yes. Uh, I feel like every one of our parties needs to be a dress up party, because I know that that's one way that I. Show my creativity, is through clothing and outfits. And and so we went to Haight street, you know, we're already close to San Francisco, the iconic shop that has. The legs dangling out the window. But I mean, they had, face uh, jewels. uh, They had, you know, wigs and. hats and stockings and,

Kat: 5:25

Oh, I might need a wig.

Val: 5:27

yes, they sent you the picture. There was this feather boa, like hat, it looked like something. Fifties. I tried it on, but I'm too vain about my

Kat: 5:36

hair's

Val: 5:36

I didn't Want my hair to be covered? we just had the best time we were there a couple of years ago where he bought Bell bottoms but they were shiny. gold and there

Kat: 5:45

seen him

Val: 5:45

yet. Oh Yes. And so there was one of the times where he was straightened it. He wore those and the lady kind of just giggled and laughed and looked at me. And I turned to her and I said, You know, he just needs more attention than I can give him. So I just let him stretch this stuff in public. So I, yeah, peacocks, peacocks need to stretch their stuff. Right. And then his first surprise was that his twin the other peacock, and, her new husband, and family, they surprised him. They flew in, they were like, that's it. We need to come. Yeah. And so he was so happy. He was like, oh, I wish they were going to be here. So We, uh, somehow I was able to keep it a secret and they were so excited to come. And so I'll have to tell you about the other peacocks outfits, the, the outfits and the

Kat: 6:35

sand.

Val: 6:37

Um, and then the, his second surprise was that me and the groom, he's a very accomplished, guitarists. Um, and senior. and so I had kind of said. Well, okay. If you need to know that Rafeek loves Rick Astley,

Kat: 6:53

Okay.

Val: 6:54

never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down. Right. And so he was Rick Rolling people before he, there even knew what a Rick roll was like he earnestly loves like non ironically, he loves Rick Ashley to the point where we had to negotiate him, going to Mexico to see Rick SLE in person. but He was already going to be in Brazil. and it was like Valentine's day. So like, I got like a trip to Vegas out of it. I'm like, fine. you want to go, see Rick Astley person? you're going to take me to Vegas for Valentine's day. He got to sing with Rick, Astley. And I think Rick Astley had to like. pride. The microphone out of his cold excited. hands. We have a video. I mean, he was good. this happened to me actually in Bible college, him and I have both almost showed up the performer. There was some like Christian singer that came to Bible college and I was supposed to host her, I have no idea Why

Kat: 7:48

was it Jennifer Knapp?

Val: 7:49

No, no, but we saw Jennifer Knapp in the early

Kat: 7:51

lunch with her. Yeah. She came to our thing. Our listeners probably don't know who Jennifer Knapp is. She made a little splash in Christian circles and then came out as queer and is still, now she's like a queer Christian artist, which is kind of a rare, rare thing, but she's

Val: 8:07

that was a splash, Well, this was a Tiffany, something, this other person. And then she gave me the mic to sing one of her verses. And I was like, Oh I'm doing good. And then she took the microwave for me. Same thing

Kat: 8:18

fuck you, Tiffany. I don't know.

Val: 8:21

Same thing with Rick Astley. we should post the video. it's pretty good. Okay. Okay.

Kat: 8:26

or it's gonna be on our Instagram.

Val: 8:28

Okay. Rafiq has this very bad habit of looking at me, just with his big brown eyes and he'll start to. Recite something that sounds like just a beautiful moments of connection and an adoration, towards me, a declaration of love. And then as he keeps going, I'm like, wait a minute. Those are just lyrics. to a song. You fucker. I'm like looking for it. Any type of like emotional closeness and intimacy. Right. And then I'm like, Ah, That's not exactly a Rick roll, but I'm using that term here. So I said, wouldn't it be funny if, if we did a song for Rififi and in the middle, I did like a Rick Astley song Yeah. so I practiced and we did, Our weddings, our first dance was let's stay together specifically the Tina Turner version, because like our second day I went to go pick her up. And as he was getting ready in a full Canadian tuxedo by the

Kat: 9:26

on your second

Val: 9:26

which I had

Kat: 9:27

a Canadian tuxedo. What the hell are you even saying?

Val: 9:30

That's where you have jeans on the top and the bottom. that's a Canadian. tuxedo. And I was like, dude, you can't do that. You can't, what do you mean? I'm like take off one piece of Asha. Take off one piece of Jean, but yeah, so he did, he did, he took the shit, then he had a nice black shirt. Okay. But he was getting ready to a concert DVD of Tina Turner.

Kat: 9:52

oh yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. Good geography.

Val: 9:56

I know. And so, um, so when we picked, let's see together, it was specifically, the Tina Turner version because Also when he met my amiga, and my friends. he was, he comes again authentically himself. Hi girls. I guess What I brought the Tina Turner video. So we could watch it and they're looking at him like, what's your stupid. But then by the end of the night, they're like play number five, play number six. And he's just in the corner, like yep. Yep. See, everyone loves Tina Turner. Tina Turner plays a big part. in our relationship. And you know, We've been talking a lot about like spiritual gifts and, and knowings and things. When somehow we decided that that was going to be our first song. In my, in like my knowing I knew shit, this is going to be a part of our story. Like we're going to have to try to stay

Kat: 10:45

together.

Val: 10:48

And, And like, I there's, I don't know. There's like a bodily sensation that I

Kat: 10:51

got chills. Yes. Well,

Val: 10:53

bodily sensation I get when I get that knowing about things And um,

Kat: 10:58

quickening, sorry.

Val: 11:01

Okay. Old Testament. and That was a bummer. in one way, because I feel like, You know, there was so much pressure to be perfect, and be good at everything and to like, no, I'm good at relationships. I'm good with people. Like I'm going to make a good choice. of who I'm going to marry and we're going to be amazing and we're going to be so happy and love. and that's so. morally. Right. Like good. That's like morally good if you that meant you were godly,

Kat: 11:28

right? Yeah.

Val: 11:29

And so it was a bummer for me to know that Yeah. Like we were going to have a crisis.

Kat: 11:33

Oh, that there'd be a point where you'd be like, it would be on the table that you might not. Yeah, I see. And you knew that

Val: 11:40

I knew it. by Choosing that song.

Kat: 11:42

Wow. That's fascinating.

Val: 11:43

I also had a knowing since we're talking about this, that we probably wouldn't have kids,

Kat: 11:48

no way

Val: 11:49

telling you. And again, it's like, well, you don't know if that's a knowing or not when you have it, but there was two couples we knew that were a bit older that didn't have kids. And I got this, like, this feeling like it's going to be like, them.

Kat: 12:01

wow,

Val: 12:03

I didn't want to believe it. And I was like, well, I don't know if that's true or not.

Kat: 12:07

But see, well, I mean, that's fast because I have these little things too. These like these little nuggets just drop in your heart at some point or become like you're aware of them. And then later when you're like, oh right. And then it becomes this sort of like, I don't know, comforting kind of confirmation of like, oh, I, I prepared myself somehow.

Val: 12:24

for me that is, that is very helpful. you want to know another one, that I just remembered We've been talking about my amiga or twin so much When we met, I had just gotten out of a relationship. I had met this guy through through the beginnings of Christian mingle, It was called equally yoked. Oh my gosh. Before it was like pen and paper version. of online dating of like Christian mingle. And this guy lived two blocks from me in San Francisco. And I remember saying, God. You're going to have to like parachute a guy down. from The sky, because it felt like there weren't very many Christian guys, nobody was walking through the church doors as I was singing. watching for them.

Kat: 13:03

singing beautifully. I'm going to

Val: 13:04

thank you. And, he lived two blocks from me. in the sunset district of San Francisco. Yes. And then he broke up with me. My dad died and then he, broke up with me he he wasn't the right one for me, but it still hurt like I'm in grief and mourning.

Kat: 13:17

Of course. And

Val: 13:18

I meet my, yeah. And she's, she's stunning. She's like very, friendly. And she has this hospitality thing where she just kind of sweeps you up. and like Cooks for you and things. So we were, it was a

Kat: 13:32

smarter pulls you into her, like actual bosom, like that kind of, yeah, for sure. Totally.

Val: 13:37

Yeah. That was the thing. My cousin, because she was in my like little small group, she'd say, oh, Val's healing, bosom.

Kat: 13:43

compassion.

Val: 13:43

healing.

Kat: 13:47

See, I just knew that

Val: 13:48

you did. You did. So we were all a small friend group. And so I was watching her give this wonderful hospitality to this guy that just broke up with me. And, And like, obviously I'd have a lot of feelings about this. Like dashingly gorgeous woman lavishing, all this, you know, attention, on him and care, on other guys too. And I just remember I don't think she likes him though, but like, And then I had this knowing I heard this voice say, but you're going to and the so weird to use these words, now, disciple her. She's going to be someone you take on under your wing. So like get it together. And I don't remember I don't remember being angry at her, I was uncomfortable. but, I remember just like, oh, maybe I should just have a talk with her then Like, oh, do you like so-and-so? no, and I know you just broke up, but no, I'm not interested. And then I said, well, I think maybe he might be getting the idea that you do. Right. And she's like, oh, okay, okay. I'll make sure I, but,

Kat: 14:45

She's like, I'll dial it back.

Val: 14:48

Um, but it was like one of those knowings of like, you have. An important,

Kat: 14:54

like

Val: 14:55

link with this person? And That's, what's important, right? now. So focus on that, which Yeah. I mean, look at we're like Decades later,

Kat: 15:05

her wedding.

Val: 15:06

And where we're bosom buddies literally.

Kat: 15:09

And you married someone so like her, she calls him her twin. That's

Val: 15:14

So so, uh, let's stay together. I'll circle us Right. back out. So I sang that song. And then in the middle, I did an acapella kind of sultry version of, I'm never going to give you up and I'm like, baby, you just got Rick Rhodes.

Kat: 15:28

I loved it by the way. So the, the whole, your whole place is filled with people and you're singing in front of all of us. I haven't heard you singing in a long time. Val. It's been so long, It was really great. You're so talented. Very sultry voice. Yeah.

Val: 15:44

thank you. Well, I I just kind said it in a throwaway and then the groom was like, yes, let's do it. That's awesome. I'm going to start practicing now on his honeymoon. He's like, I'm going to start learning right now. So we've been sneaking all these little practices He'll send me videos? I'm like trying not to let Rafiq see it. Um, It was another great creative right? Like an outlet for creativity.

Kat: 16:06

a hundred

Val: 16:07

And I sort of like forced myself into start singing. Cause I told you maybe in the fall, like I'm ready to sing again.

Kat: 16:14

I remember.

Val: 16:15

And I also told you that it was saw in some of the ex angelical kind of spaces that people were also sharing, but they had stopped using their gifts and talents because they were so entwined with church and. they kind of just, When they dropped that they dropped it all. And I think when you asked me, why aren't you not singing anymore? I'm like, because I'm not, But as soon as I said that to you. I had, an acquaintance say, oh, you sing, do you want to be in my band And so I explored that? And I don't know, maybe we'll see that if that works.

Kat: 16:44

Yeah. Oh, good job cash. And this such a like brilliant way to like again, when we were talking about like sad bitches, get vitamin D right. You know, like how to cope with just the fact that it's hard to be alive as a human, sometimes like a creative outlet of any kind, you know, in some ways the podcast is a creative outlet for

Val: 17:02

me,

Kat: 17:02

but also like being able to sing your little heart out. Right. That's so helpful. You know, anything you can do to like create something in the world to like, Offset, you know, the, how, how hard it is right

Val: 17:16

it's just interesting because we took a break. I went to the bathroom and I walked by my bed and if I become conscious of it, my body wants to go straight

Kat: 17:24

back,

Val: 17:24

into that bed. And I feel this energy right now. in this season, that that is just creating natural momentum. I don't feel like I'm pushing, but it's not pushing me into. Unhealth. Right, right. When you push too hard, it's just like, oh, someone's dialing up the treadmill a little bit and I'm able to, Yeah. It's, it's so fascinating That balance. I feel like when you have a chronic illness, you're constantly balancing well, will this be? worth The effort, am I giving too much, Am I taking too much of a withdrawal out of the bank?

Kat: 17:56

You know what? I was just talking to someone who also has a chronic illness and they are also very creative person and they were explaining to me that they felt like they should do a, B or C to help, um, the outcome of this other thing that they're going to do. And I was like, Ooh. I was like, Hey, let's be careful with the sheds because I think the, the energy of a should is a depleted. Energy, but like the energy of one is, is it's something that builds, right. It increases momentum. And so, yeah, like I will have to push, like actually I accidentally woke up really, really early this morning. That happens to me kind of a lot. And I didn't go back to sleep. and I was like, oh good. I'm going to be real sleepy when it's time to get my kids to school and pop over to Val's house for podcast day. And. I'm just gonna have to suck it up cause I want, and I fucking love, I guess day is my favorite. So you have like, that's the difference? Like when we start to have more and more things in our life that we want to do, then they're like pushing to do it. It creates more energy as opposed to the sheds, right? Oh, let's stay away from those sheds people.

Val: 19:00

Yeah. Oh, that's that's that's very good. You're looking just like a wise, wise shaved head and like a shawl around you.

Kat: 19:10

This is just my flannel wrapped around me. I'm being very queer. Don't call it a shawl. I'm rocking my flat. I'll roll hard. I'm looking real gender queer, my beanie. All my shame. Dead.

Val: 19:22

Right? Speaking of outfits, I have to say Rafiq had to his first one

Kat: 19:26

As the party, he had two amazing

Val: 19:28

full sequin, Gold and green See Glen drag it blazer. And with gold sneakers. And if that wasn't enough we found this full on robe.

Kat: 19:37

God, it was gorgeous. Oh,

Val: 19:39

we'll have to put some

Kat: 19:40

of, we will put all the pictures up. It was so fucking fun and he looked amazing.

Val: 19:45

part was like, He's like, babe, this, this role is too heavy. for dancing. I'm too hot. So it's like, oh, note to self. When picking out an outfit, You got to think about the temperature and your activity. Uh, the other peacock, my amiga I want to explain her outfit. so let me See how I do with this. Okay. So First of all, the base of the outfit, if Chanel. Made rompers romper. that was, That was the, basis of, it. Chanel made a

Kat: 20:12

because it looked like a tailored suit, but also it's like hot pants shorts, but like Tweed kind

Val: 20:18

it was it's just Chanel, suit if they were rubbers and it was good Cause you know, things were covered, nothing snuck out. And then she had like a black hat with a black veil. And then, almost knee-high. Silver shiny. silver boots.

Kat: 20:33

Yes. Yes. Very,

Val: 20:35

Yes.

Kat: 20:36

And, the gloves,

Val: 20:37

wore the main gloves.

Kat: 20:39

class, I was like, I know about those loves cause of the last podcast. Those are the gloves with the furry on the thing.

Val: 20:44

I forgot To ask her to bring the diamond skullcap. for me to wear. And then she wore her, glittery. lips,

Kat: 20:51

I noticed that too. I was like, those are the lips that she talked about that bell talked about.

Val: 20:55

So, uh, So she bought, brought the outfit

Kat: 20:58

okay. I hope that she doesn't mind, but because, okay. I had a group of my, like queer friends all came to this party. And so, you were talking about how you're queer Jason. Right. And so, at one point we're all kind of in the living room and she goes to the kitchen. You want me to go into the kitchen, the kitchen area to get a food. And she's like, with her gloves on picks up these pieces of pizza. I mean, we had this like gorgeous cater. It was all gorgeous. And so I Like from the couch to shouting of her, I was like, okay, it's with the gloves for me. Right. And then we're all, looking at her. She like crosses the room and this like fantastic, very central sort of stress. And then kind of like for us, eats the pizza and it's like wonderful way. And like, yes, and her new husband is also sitting on the couch too. And we're all just loving it up in so much. And then my one friend. Uh, Jason, that's like the new shorthand, like how queer is this person adjacent?

Val: 21:54

Okay. But toward the end of the night, you know, everyone's dancing. is getting a little,

Kat: 21:57

Oh,

Val: 21:57

a little

Kat: 21:57

real faded. I mean, Yeah.

Val: 22:01

It's getting a little bit Wilder. And then someone goes, oh, look, what's happening on the couch, and my amiga was sort of straddling her new husband and kind of doing some moves. And there were two kids on the couch. And they're like, oh, those poor boys. And I'm like, no, Those are her kids They see the solids, someone was feeling bad. for the kids. They're so used to

Kat: 22:24

it. Oh,

Val: 22:24

Oh, it was so funny. And I was able to be a little bit of a peacock as

Kat: 22:29

well.

Val: 22:30

I had my sequined dress on that. I did Not wear of to officiate. I saved that. And then I was, I got a bow, a feather like a boa. a feather, bow, I guess

Kat: 22:42

I

Val: 22:43

Uh, hanging from the store in the heat. It was like this almost like lingerie, boudoir kind of feather. jacket. And I was like, wait, I need that. instead. And so I was leaving feathers. all

Kat: 22:57

Oh my gosh. I caught one of your feathers in mid air and like, like wrapped it around the, the strap of my, what I was wearing.

Val: 23:04

Yes, I loved that. So that was perfect. And we just had the most amazing time. It feels So good. It feels like there was some pickleball people there, there were, neighbors.

Kat: 23:14

it was a real collective group.

Val: 23:15

It

Kat: 23:15

a whole, yeah. And I brought a little queer entourage is

Val: 23:19

Yes. The queer arts garage. Wasn't great. And there's lots of videos of the queer entourage dancing with her. Feick he's an equal opportunity. Dancer.

Kat: 23:28

Yes. Okay. Mambo number five. And like, he's like hamming it up with every one of these queer people.

Val: 23:34

I know I was like man, when you have like a, more of a mixed group. you, you like hear things differently. I'm like, that's a kind of like a misogynistic song.

Kat: 23:43

nobody cared. We were like, yes, dance up on me, Raphy. Yeah.

Val: 23:50

I think. Yeah. Him And one of your friends, were doing a very provocative dance

Kat: 23:54

my gosh. I was sitting on the couch and then standing in front of me was refeed and then my other good friend who goes by, they them pronouns. And they're both like dancing and singing along. I'm singing too. We're all real faded at this way, but it's I touched myself is totally embarrassing now. At the

Val: 24:12

in the light of day.

Kat: 24:14

like dancing sort of above me and then repeats like, like stroking his whole chest, like arches, his bag. Like I had such a thing in the bed. Oh my God. We love so funny. Oh,

Val: 24:28

know, there's another video where he's doing a lot of hip gyrations and I think I talked about the grooms, best friends from. England. And he's Like I know why she stays with him. those. gyrating hips, lucky girl. He said that at dinner. And then And I'm like, He's lucky. He's so funny Like I keep him around because he's so funny and he's like, You keep him around because of the gyrating hips. and it's like okay, am I approved? Can I admit that, like if I had to pick, one, like, he makes me laugh like every hour on the hour, like we're not having sex every hour, on the hour. So like,

Kat: 25:04

not, you're not,

Val: 25:10

Uh, so I don't know. if that's

Kat: 25:11

I'm just going to say to the listeners that you're not making eye contact with me anymore. Okay. But Valerie, I will say that like, oh, we're on the back deck. And like our little queer circle was all like chatted up and stuff. And like you came by and everyone was like gassing you up. Cause you. Fucking hot. Right. And then at one point you're sort of backing up against one of my friends and they're like, oh, you said I almost fell on you. And then my friend was like, I will catch you. And you're like, well, like don't worry about it. I'll catch you. Oh yeah. We're like, Valerie. We're all going to, again, every single one of my friends was like, where's Valerie, can we flip my Valerie's the word?

Val: 26:03

I feel like you're only telling me this because of your queer agenda. That's that's why you're telling me this.

Kat: 26:07

No I'm telling you because it doesn't matter. Like who's flirting with you, but it feels good to be flirted with and be silly.

Val: 26:13

it

Kat: 26:14

You know, like everyone's safe. No, one's like hitting on you. like they're going to like, you know, come after you for real

Val: 26:19

Sure, Sure. Oh, what a great time. It is so good to be with people that you can laugh with that you can have fun with.

Kat: 26:25

and like really let your hair down. Okay. Get dressed up. Right. Get all like fucking turned out, but then also like, be so authentic and silly and like, like the safety factor

Val: 26:35

Can you speak to that you were telling me.

Kat: 26:37

Well, okay. I'm just going to say, like, in my circle of friends, especially in the queer community, like there's a lot of distrust of straight men,

Val: 26:45

honestly.

Kat: 26:46

Right. And, and, you know, you can know the cultural reasons why it's not a big leap to think that there's like an innate distrust. And so like, your husband is like the safest and he is like

Val: 26:55

this

Kat: 26:56

warm effusively, like he's got this like vibrant, boyish energy that just. Disarming right. To all these people that, you know, I love and care about. And then even like your friend who brought the joy, you know, like we're all sharing and smoke around. And like, um, you know, he's also wearing this gorgeous blazer that's like covered in sequence and just warm and a few stuff. But again, another straight man that you knew from your church days. And so it just felt really good for my friends and I to be like, To push back on that narrative. You know, I don't think that narrative serves us as a collective anyway, you know, I really don't think that all straight men are, you know, inherently bad, you know? And so, um, it just, it felt really, really good.

Val: 27:38

I think it's one of the best compliments we can get the, like, we're just like a, a safe. Like a fun, a safe, fun place.

Kat: 27:46

Oh, totally.

Val: 27:46

Ah, thanks for reliving that It's so fun to relive memories It's so good for your brain. chemicals to, So we figured since we were keeping the party going from last episode where we were partying at my best, friend's wedding, they came and continued the We had so much to say about boundaries and it is a big topic. Right. To actually, I think in, the second part, we talk a lot about maybe some of the Tools that will help you. If You're trying to, to do something new and set some new

Kat: 28:17

Yeah. And establish them. Yeah. It's a whole work in progress too. Like it's, it's not, it doesn't have to be perfect. You can be a little messy. It's some trial and error and there's space for all of that.

Val: 28:27

Yeah. there is. All right. Well, we hope you enjoy the rest of, boundary,

Kat: 28:34

but first these messages from our sponsors.

Val: 28:36

Yes. That's. Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat: 28:56

It's like you're a

Val: 28:57

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat: 29:08

Living in a culture that preaches conformity to narrow beauty standards. It feels really good to own art that celebrates honors and glorifies diverse bodies that mystic art uses photos from real people to create beautiful images that make all of us more free. Get yours today. Shop fat mystic on Etsy and follow that underscore mystic underscore art on Instagram.

Val: 29:35

I love to use the analogy. With a word picture, with boundaries about using like fences and then also your home, because you have different boundaries with different people. Right. And, it's okay to let certain people in, right? Like maybe the FedEx guy he's really only allowed on your porch. Right. Uh, yes. There's some neighbors that you're like, come on in, you know, there's, there's certain people that they don't go in your bedroom. Right? not everyone gets the same access. right. And then there's the fence like. And, you know, if you planted a garden and you know, maybe the neighborhood kids are using it as like, a shortcut and they're trampling your tomato plants, right? Like maybe just a little sign is good enough. Right. If they trample that, then maybe you need to pull the picket fence up. Right. Or maybe you need to just close the gates. When people. Disregard your boundary. There's an invitation for the reminder. Right. And also if we don't close that gate, like that's the hardest part I've seen. I think about the boundary after you've gotten to the point where you believe you deserve them, is what do you do when they're not, honored. And a lot of that work is like, there's going to be fence testing. Let me see if she really means this because some people do not like to be told what to do. And so you just have to gently remind them. And if it's not gently, then maybe there's a lock on the gate. Right. and sometimes people don't get access to you.

Kat: 31:04

Yeah, I just want to own too, like the, I love the imagery of the house and the fence and whatnot. The boundaries thing goes both ways in that I absolutely have been co-dependent in my life, especially with my, my old spouse, where I felt responsible for things that were inside their boundaries. Like their thoughts, feelings, and emotions are not actually my job to try to control I find that that's still kind of a temptation for me, we're folks that I'm, the most intimate with. Right. I don't want them to suffer. So if I can like adapt myself or present myself in a way that I'm kind of trying to control outcome. Right. And so I try to be really aware of this because I don't like how it feels in my body when I'm doing it. And so I'm like, It's it's interesting how, how deep that kind of behavior is, right? Where, someone else's emotion and reaction to your boundary is not actually your responsibility.

Val: 32:04

Correct.

Kat: 32:05

And so that is hard work. That's why that person can't imagine saying the boundary. They can't even find language for it because they're so concerned and focused on how is that person going to respond. And we want all the people to respond in a way that we don't feel like there's an interruption in intimacy or in a bond,

Val: 32:24

especially if you're anxiously attached.

Kat: 32:26

Exactly. It does go right back to that. And so like just owning our shit, like boundaries go both ways. So I can say here, these are the boundaries, so I can feel safe and loved, but also I have to respect your boundaries. I have to like recognize inside myself that I am not responsible for your emotions. That is hard.

Val: 32:46

Ooh. Can we go a little bit, even deeper with the nuance, right. that is good. And I, I find that people don't really, know a good definition of codependency in general. Because someone said, oh, me and my partner have gotten so codependent during the pandemic. And I'm like, well, tell me about that. And she actually was describing co-regulation so I'll get back to that in a minute, but okay. Codependency came out of the addiction, literature and, that space of just taking ownership of. Like stopping natural consequences from happening. And like you said, feeling the ownership of the person's, feelings and their behaviors, their wants and needs and feeling like, you're responsible for that. So I do I talk about the fence and what you have to push back over the fence,

Kat: 33:33

yes.

Val: 33:35

Well, you made me feel this way or, you know, well, you did this to me, so I can't this. And it's like, okay. Learning how to. Say actually, I take ownership for how I behaved, but that part is on you. And when do you need to like a beach ball or like, you know, our neighbors kids always, there's always balls in our court yard, you know? So you're like pushing them back over and that actually can make you feel quite empowered to say, actually, no, I'm going to have to put this back on your side. This isn't mine to take responsibility for. So codependency is more about you not knowing where, where your responsibility ends and someone else's begins that that's, that's my go-to definition of codependency. And so that's why that fence is, is helpful.

Kat: 34:22

Yeah. And would you say more about coagulation? Because I'm in a season now where I am actually inviting more co-regulation than, than ever, our culture has a tendency to ask us all to be super individualistic. Right. And so all your healing is done on your own or maybe with your therapist and all of your, you know, like adulting needs to be, you got to do all these things, you know,

Val: 34:43

Like you shouldn't have to need someone. You should be able to do it all on your own if no one else is available.

Kat: 34:50

And that's not good. That's not true. That's, that's harmful. Right. And so co-regulating, I

Val: 34:55

Yeah. Yeah. So I love to explain what co-regulation is us partnering with another person to sooth.

Kat: 35:06

Yeah.

Val: 35:07

So I explained like this, when you have a baby and the baby's crying, they don't know how to regulate themselves yet. They don't know how to self-sooth. So regulate could also be self-soothing right. Getting back into that window of tolerance where you're not over like aroused or under aroused. And so babies don't know how to do that yet. So, you know how you just, and cat, you can describe what I'm doing on the, on the video here. It's like I'm pantomiming.

Kat: 35:31

a baby on her shoulder and patting it

Val: 35:32

Yeah. And then you do

Kat: 35:34

but firmly.

Val: 35:35

right. Cause they say that, and then you get them close to your heart, your heart rate, right. Your heartbeat. And that actually helps them find soothing. Your SU when a kid's crying you, what do you do? You get the soothing voice? It's okay. It's going to be all right. Come here, come here. You all right. So we're using those things to help the other person regulate. Hey, can I have a hug? Hey, can you stay with me? Can you be with me? Can you hold my hands? They're always, we co-regulate. And that is beautiful and healthy. I do think that that it is. Important to know your go tos of how to Sue yourself when no one else is available, because sometimes no one else is available and you will feel more in control and have agency if you know, okay, this is what, and I make people have a list. Like here's the people, what things can you do to calm down? Okay. What involve other people? What is just you, right?

Kat: 36:32

Oh, that's so helpful. I love that because it's the both, and we always just keep coming back to this both end, but it's not wrong to rely on people or depend on people or to live life with people.

Val: 36:43

So if you have, we do, and we do in that and all like, honestly, all the chemistry oxytocin is the bonding hormone, right? Like sex, like babies laughing with your girlfriends, all those things like you release oxytocin and you bond. And so co-regulation is actually beautiful and knowing when you need it. And actually, there's another thing, funny thing that like, I don't try to get into this like trope, but it's like, you know, oh fuck. Like you, don't nothing about relationships, I'm the expert, right? Like, you know, just teasing about that. Right. But I have this little list of things that he does naturally that later on, I read somewhere and I'm like, oh fuck Raphy. That's where peak was trying to get me to do that. But he used to tell me you're my piece. But he used to say, like, I feel so peaceful when I laid down with you. Like, and oh, because yes, studies show that studies show that it's reducing your heart rate. You know? So co-regulation is so important. How can another person to help soothe me right now?

Kat: 37:44

Sure. Sure. I mean, it all ties right back into, because it's going to be more difficult to co-regulate with someone who you haven't established boundaries with, or maybe you've tried to establish some boundaries and they don't respect them. And so, you know, the humans in our lives that we can co-regulate with, that requires some self knowledge first. Right? What do I need?

Val: 38:04

Yeah. And What can I handle, remember how you told me in one of the other episodes that like, when you were like, can I just share, can I read my journal? And I was like, Ooh, I want to tell her where I'm at and what I just have to get done or whatever.

Kat: 38:18

Yeah,

Val: 38:19

I was like, I had an epiphany in that moment of when we share our boundaries with people that actually can be creating safety. I mean, right. I mean, you talk about like consent and sex and things, right? Like talking about that before you're creating these boundaries. Children feel young, children feel very safe in boundaries. They like to, to fight them. But if they know this is where I can go, it is it's, we're creating safety. So I felt in that moment, like how can, how can you feel comfortable if you don't know what's going on with me?

Kat: 38:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Val: 38:53

boundaries creates safety.

Kat: 38:57

and containers for hard things sometimes. Absolutely.

Val: 39:01

Yes. Uh, it is good. And I mean, I guess I want to be transparent too and say, I'm a recovering people pleaser. Because it feels it there's, there's this alarm system that's like, you better not get people upset with you. And so I'm trying to work through that. And I noticed that when I put different boundaries in my relationship, and then I had to another tool I love to talk about is distress tolerance.

Kat: 39:28

Oh, what's that Val?

Val: 39:30

it's just, it's, it's really quite simple. It's just the idea. We have to remind ourselves that we can tolerate distress.

Kat: 39:43

Oh, my God, of course.

Val: 39:45

You have the ability to tolerate distress. You just have to ride the wave. And I talk a lot about how emotions are like waves, emotions. Very rarely stay the same. And they always crest. And then they subside like, waves of an ocean. Right. And so we just need to know that remind ourselves, this, this too will pass and that we're just writing it, giving it space, trying to see the bitter, like the sweet in the bitter. Right. We talked about that last week. Just sitting with that and it doesn't always have to be happy in that there's value. In these emotions and emotions just need some space to dissipate. They do. And so we just need self-soothing I'm telling you one thing to work on is what are your go-tos to self-soothe and to, a last through that moment. So I, I had to practice that when I started putting up different boundaries for my own sake, you know, and even in my relationship, and then watch him sort of fight them and watch him and watch him being with me because I, I felt like I always needed to please.

Kat: 40:55

right. right.

Val: 40:56

And after a couple of times you realize, okay, I can get over this distress and then it becomes easier and easier to be able to speak up for yourself.

Kat: 41:06

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. And then you don't have these like unspoken resentments. I mean, it really is prioritizing relationship putting up boundaries in these most intimate relationships. It's because you want them it's because you want them and you want to be safe to show up in your authenticity.

Val: 41:22

we are not good with consent. How many people have I told, do you know to be a better friend, you know, use consent, Hey, I'm having a rough time. Do you have space, like instead of just word vomiting or emotionally dumping or giving someone your emotional backpack and just like good luck with that. There's no consent. And that people start to feel real resentful and all the things that are unspoken in your own mind and body and I'm trying to make direct communication, sexy again, direct communication. And it's going to seem like over communication because some of it is we've believed the lies of you know, if they love me or if this relationship is real, I shouldn't have to say what I need. They should just know no, of course. Like we ask questions. You're picking up on cues in your, and you're preparing things. No, we, another quote, we teach people how they should treat it.

Kat: 42:15

right,

Val: 42:16

our job by what we say and by what we don't say, but what we allow and what we don't allow. And that's, that's really the essence of boundaries, but I want to encourage everyone to use direct communication. If you're not sure. Ask you did that to me the other week, remember I was having a rough morning and you were like, Hmm, Hey guys, I just asked, is any of this involved me?

Kat: 42:41

Oh my God. I love that. You're so safe for question like that. That feels really good in my body when I think about that, because yeah. I could tell that you were just, you know, feeling some things and usually, um, you know, your energy is a little different when I show up. And so I just was like, okay, this is probably not about me, but like, I can be kind of self centered sometimes. So I'm like, okay, just check-in.

Val: 43:00

Yeah. Yeah. I think we all are. Yeah. What is it me? And I'm like, oh no, I'm sorry, friend. I just had a rough morning, you know, and gives, gives a chance to clear the air, keep clearing

Kat: 43:10

Yeah, I love direct communications so much. It is sexy to me. I, I love over communicating. It's just, it's interesting. Like I have this like deep passion to know and be known. I think there are people in my life where, probably I come on pretty strong because you know, one question will lead to even more curiosity.

Val: 43:33

I just want to know, like every thought and feeling in your whole body, like everything you're ever your marrow. I want know, cry on your marrow. I know, Actually. I think my most favorite people are curious people. Anyway, you were saying a direct communication because it helps you understand a person. I definitely think

Kat: 43:51

Yeah. Well, and then, okay. I here again, I just think in order to be able to participate in really direct communication, you have to have a significant amount of self knowledge. And I think that's where it can be tricky. It's like doing the work to have deep, profound self knowledge is not easy. It's time-consuming and again, you were saying before about like being comfortable with the distress. A lot of us have stories that are painful. Right.

Val: 44:17

Before we kind of circle back around to our three questions, I think that we just wanted to recognize and just leave a little space to talk about, when you do the work of centering yourself, it doesn't always end up that you and your partner or your loved ones are in sync. That might mean that you have you land in two different places.

Kat: 44:41

right. Yeah.

Val: 44:42

And then what,

Kat: 44:43

And then what, and then you have to be kind to yourself and navigate as best you can. Yeah.

Val: 44:50

and it's helpful in that moment. I think we talked about like holding something loosely or having this vice grip around it because of the sheds that we've been told. Right.

Kat: 45:02

yeah,

Val: 45:03

And yeah. I mean, I think who a lot of my anxiety left when I was like, if there's a point where I just can't handle something and it's, not right for me, then I could say well, if you really have to do that and I really have to do this, we need to honor that. And then that's okay. And that was the end of, that was the end of the world in the old worldview,

Kat: 45:29

Right.

Val: 45:30

having sex before marriage and divorce were just the most terrible things you could ever do. And I just think there's no grace in that because joining two people's lives is incredibly complex.

Kat: 45:44

yeah,

Val: 45:44

Think about how much effort it takes to understand yourself.

Kat: 45:48

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's beautiful. Well, it's so cool to engage in the process of learning yourself and knowing yourself, and then, watching your authentic, you come to life, I had this really intense process in my life. I did end a longterm marriage, we were both Christian and then I wasn't a Christian anymore. Those are the, the hard facts of it, but it was fucking painful when I was at that space where I had to like tell the truth to myself. I remember sitting in church and this was, I left evangelical faith. Before I got married, I ended up marrying someone who was a devoted Christian, but, like a Lutheran. And so this kind of Christianity was, gay affirming and, and it still, it got to the point where I was like, what? I don't think that this is what resonates with me anymore. And so I tried my best to communicate that to my, former spouse and it was met with a lot of resistance and a lot of judgment. And criticism of you promised to like have a Christian family and a Christian life with me. And I was like, yeah, but like I evolved, I guess,

Val: 46:55

And that worldview, changing and getting out of that is never part of the equation. Oh yeah. It blew his mind.

Kat: 47:03

Yeah. but I, I had to honor myself because the dissonance was just getting really, really loud and it's painful to live in dissonance. So I have to tell my truth, and this is interesting because I felt some of these shiftings, at the beginning of our marriage and I went and found like a Christian therapist I was like, okay, I need to just still be a Christian, but also I got to deal with all this shit. I sort of knew somehow in my bones, if I wasn't a Christian, the marriage would be over. And then you fast forward about 10 years and I was. I am just not a Christian though. and so yeah, that, that was the, end of a longterm marriage. And, you know, it was right. It was almost immediately after that, that I was like, oh, and I'm gay. funny. Like, you could look at the timeline and be like, oh, I realized I was gay and I ended my marriage, but actually I realized I wasn't a Christian anymore. And that ended my marriage. Oh man, I'm gay. So, honoring our own truth. And then, you know, like I was trying to say a boundary to my former spouse of like, listen, I understand that you have a different worldview than I do at this point. But like, you can't call what feels resonant with me, Harrison. You can think it just don't say it to me anymore.

Val: 48:08

Yeah.

Kat: 48:10

It's not helpful. Um, it was a hard boundary for them to respect. And I think this is, we run our course then because right. Because what was true for them and what was true for me were dissonant they're out of resonance. And, you know, there was this big change that happened. Though there's been a lot of change. I am so in love with who I am today, you know, see, and I could just cry, like, like it's bringing me pleasure, like back to our three questions. It's bringing me pleasure to know that I I'm in this process of like incorporating my light and my dark together and like having peace with all of it. I'm in relationships. With humans who like, even just my friends, and just people who like, they get Catherine as a whole package. you know, it's funny. Cause I was saying like, I can be the person who's like pressuring everyone to join in. And so not respecting boundaries sometimes. And so when, remember I told this story about like having the like spin the bottle party, one of the friends was like, I don't think I want to play. And then every time it would come around, like it could be their turn again. I was like, whoa, you want to, we went to LA and then one of the other people was like, Hmm, they don't want to. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm being an asshole right now. We're all high, you know? But I was like, oh my God, I'm an asshole. And you still love me so dumb. But it was like a big deal in my friend group. I was like, oh my God, you guys love me. And I'm not showing up perfectly. And that felt amazing, you know? In my old relationships that were connected with Christianity, I really felt like I had to show up perfectly. And, and so like, I get to like, say, this is like, this is me having a boundary of like, if you would like to love me and have me like, love you with the kind of ferocious love that I offer people in my life. When you have to be able to have capacity to hold space for my humanity, because I'm not going to be capable of showing a perfectly, as much as I wish I could, or I would never want to cause harm. Right. I'm still human. And so what's amazing is that now I've cultivated a life where this is true, where I get to be light and dark. I get to be human. I get to be like strong and powerful and mystical and all these cool, weird things. But I also get to be frail. Sometimes it's sad sometimes like to show up at your house and be like, I'm a sad bitch. And you're like, here's some vitamin D. And all that came from knowing myself. And it did also come from like learning how to set some boundaries and

Val: 50:46

Um,

Kat: 50:47

my God, it feels so fucking good to be authentic.

Val: 50:50

yes. Cause there's no should anymore, right? Like that's saying you should be perfect all the time.

Kat: 50:56

Right.

Val: 50:57

even?

Kat: 50:58

Well, I mean, I think we still wrestle with those ideas, but like I have a lot more conviction now about, rooting out perfectionism. Right? Christianity taught me. I had to be perfect because God is perfect. He expects perfection in order to love you, fuck that we actually get to be loved unconditionally. We can love ourselves unconditionally. And then we get to invite humans that resonate with that. Within using a boundaries kind of thing where like, I love you and I recognize your divinity and your humanity. And here's the boundary that I need in order to keep myself space myself safe. Right. That's all in the nuance. But like, we have access to being loved no matter what, like you're still worthy of love. Right. And we get to offer that to ourselves and to one another, even if it means all, we have to make an adjustment to the relationship, we have to have this boundary or whatever, but you can be loved. Yeah, Oh my God so much good stuff. Oh, yay. Well, this has been such a good conversation.

Val: 52:03

so good. Thank you. Yes. Until next time,

Kat: 52:08

Alright.

Val: 52:09

you.

Kat: 52:10

I love your friend. Bye.