Parenting, Children & Infertility, Oh My!

Kat and Val laugh and cry as they tell deeply personal stores and hard earned wisdom about their respective relationships to parenting, children and infertility. Even if you don’t have small humans in your world this episode will strengthen your conviction to engage fully in your life. Our hosts share how they managed to alchemize pain, loss and disappointment into profound beauty, joy and peace. 

*The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only*

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. My darling cat.

Kat: 0:36

Hello. It's So nice to see you

Val: 0:38

in person.

Kat: 0:39

I'm so glad you're home.

Val: 0:41

biofields again. I know you want to be in my biofield so badly. I want to be in yours

Kat: 0:48

And you told me you have a very Powerful. biofield. That's what you said to me. You were also like, worried about like me distracting you from getting some stuff done.

Val: 0:57

right. I would say we both have very powerful biofields

Kat: 1:02

it's true.

Val: 1:03

Some people call it a magnetic personality. Some people call it well, bitch, back up. Excuse me. Do you have an inside voice?

Kat: 1:14

Oh, well, anyway, this is my favorite. I love recording. Live in

Val: 1:18

Yeah, yes, yes, me too. Cause we just got back from, what I've been calling our substitute parenting mission. Uh, our dear friends went away, uh, celebrate a special, occasion and we watched their kids in their house so they could go to school and all that stuff I mean, and I feel like we did better than like the average substitute, right? They told us, you know, the younger one's a little tricky, so he's going to try to check into stuff. So it was hilarious. He kept sending texts. Like, I'm not sure if I got tricked, but, and then they're like, no, the older one doesn't trick you, but I'm like, um, he asked me for body spray and I was like, oh, sure, honey. Yes. Whenever you want. I'm like, I don't know if I just got

Kat: 2:02

So you told me that there are 13 and 10,

Val: 2:04

Yes. And we've known them since they were babies. The actually was funny. The younger one loves to hear like their birth stories and and so he was like, yeah, a T Val, that was messed up. You weren't even here for our birds. You weren't even here to watch us get born. And I was like, look, I watched you come out of the vagina. Okay. I saw

Kat: 2:26

vagina to this little

Val: 2:27

Yes Because his mother says it. Like I saw you come into this world. No editing, no filters, no nothing. Your brother was three weeks early. We were in Hawaii. Okay. Give us a break. We didn't know.

Kat: 2:44

uh,

Val: 2:45

And refugees, the watch them when they were little and this, his little, little buddy. So it's been so great. And they're just lovely humans. And I was telling you before, I've noticed that it's hard because in our bubble family, they have a little three-year-old and he's just the sweetest and. You know, I don't want to say good kid, right? Like that's, that's, that's not good, but this is a helpful as it's also like what? But, but I wanted to say that, like we enjoy, they've done wonderful jobs, like molding and shaping these fine young humans. That's all I want to say. But I think what they hear is like, your kids are easier. It's not so hard. And I'm like, no, like I get it. I can, for as much as I can understand, not being a parent, I get it. I'm not saying that you have it easy. I'm just saying they're so wonderful. So I try to make sure that they really hear that message. Cause what I'm getting back is like, but you know, it's hard. Just well done, mom, you know

Kat: 3:41

Yeah I do. I do.

Val: 3:43

And we got to come in. I kept telling them like, you know, look, this is fun for us. This is novel. Playing parents because we get to go home. We get to go home and enjoy silence. So it's fun. This is novel. And it was so fun. And you know, the first day we went to trader Joe's to get all of our supplies and our cooking for the

Kat: 4:02

week.

Val: 4:03

And this, older lady, I mean, she literally tracked me down and was like, oh, I just have to tell you that if I had the same luscious hair as you and your boys, I would be so

Kat: 4:15

happy.

Val: 4:16

And the other one looked at

Kat: 4:17

me

Val: 4:17

I was just like, thank you so

Kat: 4:19

much.

Val: 4:20

Oh, I thought that was hilarious. The other thing was that, they, they were trying to drag me.

Kat: 4:28

These boys are trying to drag.

Val: 4:32

I was like, yeah, guys, come on, we're going to have a party on Friday night. Don't you want to invite your friends? And I don't know somehow they're like, but what about, uh, at Duval? And, uh, they were like, we'll just slip some melatonin into, and I'm like, guys, that's illegal. You're trying to jug me. They're like, no melatonin is that illegal. I could buy it at the store by myself. And then they were like, yeah, antivirus is going to be sleeping. And her, and the music is going to be so loud that her bed's going to be jumping up and down and it's going to be like moving down the street and she'll still be asleep. I can't believe you. Little fuckers are trying to drug me. So we had a great time.

Kat: 5:12

I'm so glad we're

Val: 5:13

glad that we were able to do that for our friends and let them have their

Kat: 5:16

but it's tiring.

Val: 5:18

Oh, yeah. I was like, Hey, can I have good news, bad news? It's not terrible news, but the podcast isn't done, it's definitely full on,

Kat: 5:27

Right. And even like, so minor, you know, 10 and 12, and so they have a lot more autonomy. They can do their own shit. Right. They get dressed by themselves, but like just the energy of these smaller humans and needing some engagement, right. Needing meals. Right. I It's it's astounding. How like truly depleting. It can be spending time. small people,

Val: 5:49

I have a picture of her feet. He got knocked out by APM. He's watching the warrior game. He's like cuddled up under a blank gate. He's like, man, it's tiring watching after these kids. I feel very aware and I want to say it out loud that I know that we have one less thing to fight about. Me and Rebecca have one less thing to fight about, uh, because we don't have kids we see things very differently. And so I just know that, that would have been a big thing of just like, like everyone,

Kat: 6:18

well, I mean, totally. Yeah. Like me when deciding to and my long-term marriage, like the parenting is a big piece of it where I realized after the fact that I felt so much better just parenting the way that it felt intuitive to me, and then trusting my ex. to do, parenting the way that feels intuitive to him. And like he's a wonderful parent, but when we were together, You know, even when it was like good in our marriage, there was this like kind of constant tension, of like the sort of compromise that you're doing, where he, he feels a little out of what's resonant with him. Right. And then I'm a little out of what's resonant with me. And it honestly was like this idea that as parents, you have to be on the same page with all this. stuff. Like, Hmm. I don't know. I don't know if I support that idea anymore, but I do know that like for me, being able to parent the way that feels good to me just naturally and then like he can do it the way that he wants to. And that feels better to me. I don't want to compromise about

Val: 7:15

Yeah. Like do it the way you want to do it and I don't have to see it. Yeah. No. And even I forgot this part, even Rafiq was like, okay. So, help me. How do I, how do I organize a sleepover? He's like, okay. But I don't know how to do a sleepover. I only, I didn't have any of my life. I slept in a room with my grandmother and my cousin and my grandmother peed in the corner in a pot. And I don't think I've brought this up before, but see, this is why you didn't, you need to know the origin story of your spouse's people. Because I think one of the episodes I talk about how. I'm not allowed to go to the bathroom by myself, right? There's no, no spaces of privacy. And then when he told me that, his grandma had this little,

Kat: 7:57

his grandma in Brazil,

Val: 7:59

thank you. His grandma in Brazil, this was when was a kid. So we're talking, you know, eighties. She had a little pot that at nighttime, she would pee and then she had to go the bathroom. And then when he said that, I'm like, no wonder I get no privacy in the bathroom. No wonder you're just in there, like, nothing's happening. So, so moral of the story, find out the origin story of your spouse and significant other. And you'll, it'll make a whole lot more sense,

Kat: 8:22

He's never had a sleep over? Oh,

Val: 8:26

that's why he tries to get people to sleep over our house all the time.

Kat: 8:29

Is that just clicking right now? I know his birthday is coming up I'm like, we should have a sleep over here, Val. Well

Val: 8:35

he wanted you to sleep over after, after less. Right. And I had to tell him I kept having her own car to sleep over, which I don't think she wants to have in our house, but, uh, he's always asking grown adults, Hey, you want to sleep over? And I'm like, babe,

Kat: 8:51

no, he's right, Val. It's

Val: 8:53

You're right. He is

Kat: 8:54

Yeah. All right

Val: 8:55

It is fun. It is great fun. That's why I keep him

Kat: 8:59

around.

Val: 8:59

He's a great fun. So today we decided, since, since I got a taste of substitute

Kat: 9:05

parents

Val: 9:05

uh, we're going to talk about parenting kids, the journey of having kids or not having them all the identity, that's swirling around that. All the pressures all of the things.

Kat: 9:16

it's going to be so fun. We're going to get into it. Yeah. So we'll in our culture, right? It's one of those things. where If we don't take the time to like question expectations. Right. Then, You know, we talk about compulsory heteronormativity. right? Like I was definitely subject to that. Like I just thought that's what I was. Um, but then that also exists in parenting. Right? Like we just grew up with the assumption. You get married someday to someone of the opposite gender. And then, um, and then you have kids, and that's what you're supposed to

Val: 9:46

The default is you want, and you are going to There's a default. It's supposed to happen to everyone.

Kat: 9:53

And that's not always the case. No. I remember being 19 and in Bible college and being like, I definitely don't want kids

Val: 10:00

really. Oh, I don't remember that.

Kat: 10:02

I didn't want them. And then when I was like, in my mid twenties, I was like, I'm going to die if I don't have kids. And like, I've heard people talk about this too. Like this biological imperative that like fucks up your brain. Yeah. I didn't get there to get married and tell us 31. And, I wanted these kids so badly, It was fascinating. so uh, we ended up getting pregnant right away. Like we planned to get pregnant right away and, you know, had a kid. And then when that kid turned one, we're like, oh, I guess we don't have to be careful. And then boom pregnant again. So the my next kid is like 21 months apart, and then I'm like delivering my second child and I was, I was like, I'm not doing this fucking shit again. It was like in the delivery room, It was probably during transition if you know much about like birthing, but, I was like, never again, but like, you know, he had four in his family, I had four in my family, we thought that we might try for you know, like a larger family, but no, I was like, no one too. that's all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so I was, you know, in my early thirties and I thought that I had a good grasp on who I am as a person. And I had a supportive spouse. Who's like a really particularly great father, really good with kids, really like excellent with babies. particularly. Yeah. Some of our favorite pictures are him in with like a newborn all swaddled up and just like in that little football hold, can you picture that? Like a little swatter baby and Yeah. But he had to go back to work. Right. And so I was home alone with these two very small babies. And, um, I was having cyclical bouts of, postpartum depression, but I didn't know it. And it's so strange. I thought of myself as so much pretty self-aware I'd already been to therapy, I remember trying not to be a, lost to lose myself in parenting, but I actually did. Okay. So also there's the sleep deprivation, Right. So that's a long time to go without good sleep. And then my body was sort of in like high alert for just too long. and My body can't handle it. Right. And so not enough sleep and then high alert and then all of the needs. And again, like being in my early thirties before I had. kids, it meant that I like tasted adult autonomy. Right. A lot of people in in cause we were still religious back then. So a lot of people in religious spaces are having their kids in their twenties, so they don't really get that long of like, experiencing like true autonomy as an adult.

Val: 12:17

long naps, uh, silence, uninterrupted

Kat: 12:20

doing what the Fuck you want to do and having resources to do it Right. And like having agency over your home own life. And so when you have children, then that's just fucking gone. And I remember that was the thing that. was kind of devastating I just couldn't move easily through the world.

Val: 12:37

Yeah A lot of your movement was gone

Kat: 12:39

yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, so I was trying to breastfeed my kids and I remember too, well, okay. As parents, we have a tendency to like project all our shit. Right. So I had childhood trauma, there's all this old stuff, you know, that again, I'd worked on in therapy, but I remember I was like, I'm definitely gonna fucking do this. Right. So my first kid, we were doing all this, attachment parenting. So we write all the books. So my ex. And I even did a class, we like took a community college class on, psychology, but like it had like a whole part about parenting. and stuff like that. Yeah. So I'm going to do everything right. Attachment parenting is we're going to do. And so like my first born was literally. three months Before anyone put him down, like he was constantly, being held. I would walk around with a front pack or like one of those wraps on like, he would sleep on us. Like, I mean, it was fucking

Val: 13:29

insane

Kat: 13:30

Right. And I know a hundred percent like, especially I can see it now. Like that was absolutely because my emotional needs were not met as a child, you know,

Val: 13:38

like

Kat: 13:38

my mother was just definitely in a stressed out part of her life, like when I was born and then there's a kid right behind me, you know, just 20 months after me. And so I did not get some of that you know, touch and care and attention. And so um, and then when our second kid shows up, we're actually in the hospital with our first born, as soon as, as soon as the baby was cleared for all the testing and stuff like that, We were like, disrobed them again and put them skin to skin. Like, that's a whole thing. Right. We even had the kids' grandparents, this eight year old man, like took off his shirt. to put this kid's skin to skin. Cause we were like, this is what we're doing. Oh my God. But then, with the second kid, they're all like tucked in tight into this like little bundle. And they were like under a heat lamp to go get like the hearing tests and stuff. And they're being rolled back in and um, their dad went with them and then they come back in together and I'm like, normally with the other kid, Do you know, unwrap them and put them skin to skin. But I was like, um, I think they're fine. And so like, this baby is sleeping so peacefully and I'm like, oh. Maybe, maybe that's the overcorrection of like, can't put the kid down and like all the skin, to skin and all that stuff.

Val: 15:00

funny, we were joking about how the correction right. Of a lot of us we'd be gen X-ers, right? Like latchkey kids and raised by people that may be, didn't get a lot of that emotional, attention, but it's like, yeah, if we didn't have the eighties, we wouldn't have stranger things or Goonies or ETE. Like where were the parents in these movies? Where were the parents? Like you see the, funny meme about you know, if you feel bad about how you are as a parent, the mommy T didn't know there was an alien living in her house for however long, right? Like, there'd be none of these awesome even karate kid. Like none of these awesome movies that the parents were around.

Kat: 15:37

Yeah. And so the term helicopter parenting like modern parenting is that the cultural expectations of modern parenting is absolutely too much, you know? And then I, I think it's really clear cause I could see what I had done with my first born. Like we have a tendency to just project, you know, all of our unhealed stuff, onto our children. We're like trying to do it right for them or trying to show it for them. But I'm noticing too that as a culture, we are limiting children's exposure to failure or negative emotions. or, you know, Like you could say that we're coddling them a lot. That's not our job our job is not to prevent the kids from ever experiencing anything challenging it's to give them the skillset, to like learn how to navigate that, you know,

Val: 16:22

the resiliency Yeah.

Kat: 16:24

So resiliency comes from giving your kids the skills to navigate negative emotions, not prevent them,

Val: 16:29

not yet not to shield them like this big bubble that like they'll never experience any pain or hurt it's way more productive and giving them agency right. Equipping

Kat: 16:39

them Oh my God. So my youngest kid, this is interesting. So during the pandemic, right, we still do not know what the fuck the long-term effects are of children dealing with a pandemic, but we do know that what kids need is an emotionally available parent that shows up. for them consistently. not perfectly just consistently you get to miss the mark and then you just fucking say, you're sorry.

Val: 17:03

Can I, can I just say research has shown that, right? I tell everybody, you just have to be a good enough parent after that, the return on investment, the kids aren't getting better. You're just, wearing yourself out.

Kat: 17:14

Just good enough. Treat them like a Human being, not an extension of you Right

Val: 17:18

live vicariously through

Kat: 17:20

Right That's a hard thing sometimes too so okay. So my kids have been experiencing wow the pandemic has happened, their father and I separated And so the other day. I was just in the car with my younger one. Who's 10. And, out of the blue, I just got this random idea to be like, what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you?

Val: 17:40

Oh my

Kat: 17:41

my kid was so here for this. conversation, it's so funny. They still perked up and. they were like, Oh, well, yeah, definitely when I broke my arm, which by the way was at the very beginning of the, pandemic they were roller skating and they like fell and broke their arm. And, I was like anything else. And so they listed a whole bunch of things. I was like, kind of waiting for them to say divorce. They did not. And, you don't they list, other stuff, like they said, well, they said. oh, When I was three and I puked all over my bed and all over myself, that was the worst thing that happened to me. I was like, oh. And so it was fascinating to watch how energized my child was to talk about these things, but they had lived through them. Right.

Val: 18:22

It's just wonderful. Can I say that you're leaving space for them to talk about these things openly and freely and you're, you're leaving space for emotions. I know a lot of people grew up in households where you couldn't talk about the bad stuff. It was so zipped up. Nobody had the, tools it was rare

Kat: 18:37

I know. Well, me too, like, we didn't talk about fucking anything. My kids are annoyed that I want to talk about. and process feeling so much, honestly. Yeah. so like, but it felt really cool for them to have plenty of answers and to be really engaged in the conversation. But then at the end, I was like, well, I haven't checked in about this Noah. How are you feeling about, mom, and dad, not living together. you know? And they're like, Fine. And, and they are fine. you know, that's, what's so Interesting is like, when we think about parenting our children, we have decided that we have to be perfect. And again, this is a fucking cultural thing. Right. And you sacrifice, you know, mother's day is coming up. and I really hate it. I really hate it. I don't like what we have told mothers in our culture.

Val: 19:23

I actually have a lot of sympathy for moms these days. a fucking rough

Kat: 19:29

It's always been a rough job. And the idea that what we do is we praise self sacrifice. It is disgusting. We do not know how to praise Being your, like, you know, authentic self as a parent, we don't even have vocabulary for that. Right. But like, when you hear someone, like, I don't know, they're giving a speech and they're like, oh my mom, she came to every single game and she did all these fucking things and she she worked three jobs and I'm like, that woman is for sure. Amazing. But also there is more to that person's life than being your parent, right?

Val: 20:03

Yeah. It's a sticky thing. Right? You and I were talking, you were saying how in the early years when they're young and they're, literally attached to your breast many times and, you're sleep deprived. It is very hard to send to yourself. Those are those are the tough

Kat: 20:18

Will you get through those? I mean, you just have to get through that part. And hopefully you have some people in your life that You can tap them in here and there, but that part is hard. It's almost impossible not to lose yourself in those the zero to five

Val: 20:29

Sure Yeah You, have to keep a tiny human alive, long enough where they can wipe their own butt and, you know,

Kat: 20:36

and you have to teach them how to do that. That's a whole thing. That's not

Val: 20:39

Right Like you have a job. I've been telling people to when they're making that decision of whether it's a parents or not, you have a project for 18 years. Like you have a responsibility it is. It's just going to take some of your time. It doesn't have to take all of your time. But the reality is we, we love to say that, you know, women can have it all and men can have it all and people

Kat: 20:59

can have it all,

Val: 21:00

but maybe not all at once.

Kat: 21:02

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely have space for that, for sure. I would say my parenting has been really informed by my queer journey. and My queer journey was informed by my relationship to my body. And one of the things about my body and learning that I have a chronic illness was that I had these small kids and I was really still quite able-bodied. And then, the chronic illness I have has a tendency to progress during major hormonal changes. So, it's called lymphedema. You can look it up, we'll put a link in the show notes, but, it's somehow related to hormonal changes in the body. And so, my body, after making these two kids in quick succession, deteriorated rather quickly. And so I went from being able to pack both my kids up and carry them all around and take them to, pockets, you know, sometimes twice a day, just to keep them out of the house, to less and less mobility and more and more pain. And then I feel like my body sat me down and said, I have some stuff to tell you, you know, and it's interesting that it's related to my body stopping, working I had to move slower. I couldn't keep up with the pace of modern life and the expectations on parenting and modern parenting. And So my kids. You know, from a young age, had a lot more autonomy than their peers because I just wasn't able to do again, like this sort of helicoptery parent thing that is kind of this unquestioned new norm, you know, like again, when you and I were children, the norm was like parents. will lock you out

Val: 22:32

We got,

Kat: 22:33

you didn't get

Val: 22:34

locked out of the house in the summer for a couple hours. You have to play outside. You are not allowed in here.

Kat: 22:40

No a hundred percent like You would get arrested today.

Val: 22:43

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and we definitely got the message and there was three of us in two of them were hyperactive and, you know, we definitely got the message that we were really trying my mom's last nerve and that was okay and I wasn't crushed by it. Right. I wasn't crushed by like my mom being like, you kids need to get out of my face I need some time alone. You're literally giving me a headache. I love you, but goodbye. Leave me alone. Right.

Kat: 23:09

And you know, now we've got like great, great things and resources out there, like gentle parenting and all these kinds of things, which I'm really in favor of. But also kids are just human beings that are smaller, you know? So like they can, they can understand what boundaries are. And so, like, I don't hide the fact from my kids. that I don't want to be around them all the time. Or like when they're with their dad for the weekend that I'm happily doing my own thing. you know, I've even asked them like, do you guys miss me when you're with dad? And they're like, no, And I'm like, I don't miss them either. It's okay. You know, it Kind of sounds bad. But they are in great hands and they're, you know, happily engaged and emotionally

Val: 23:47

they're being present. And

Kat: 23:49

yeah. And so it's interesting because I'm so grateful that I realized that I could parent a way that was different than what was socially acceptable. And that came, I mean, it came at a price. It was like my body forcing me to slow down. And I was like, oh, I'm fucking depressed. Like, I didn't, I didn't know that. You know, so I start getting some care and treatment for that. And then it sort of shifts in. I finally, Again, our culture, if you just stay on the track that like the expectation is, I don't know when, when people like get in touch with who they are and what they really want, you know, and again, parenting is one of those things where it's, it constant demands on your time and attention. And so I, I went through this whole process where I was evaluating my spirituality and like, shifting and growing in some ways. And ultimately realize that I, did no longer share the same faith as my, former spouse and then later I realized, oh, I'm queer. And so here, I'm doing all of these like big shifts because my body slowed me down enough to like, create some space, to like learn what the hell was going on with me to sort of find my authenticity. And then now I've been able to parent from a place of I am authentically me in the and. I wish that I had been able to like discover some of these things before I had children, but my kids have watched all this happen. And so now my parenting style is, you know, I give them an incredible amount of bodily autonomy, and I, we talk about consent culture all the time. They're actually allowed to say no to me. which again, that's one of my things of like, I don't feel great about how we put authority on this pedestal. And so you did shit even though, maybe it was out of resonance with you. And so like, we can negotiate chores, here's what I need you to do. We're like a little cooperative group here, so this is what needs to get done, but you don't have to do it right this minute.

Val: 25:46

Yeah, it's just so interesting that I know there's a lot of pushback. You know, don't force kids to give relatives, hugs, all that kind of stuff. Right. Like don't force them. But then if you really do think about it, we're asking for all this, conformity and don't think for yourself, don't listen to your body. Just do what other people say, and then surprised when we don't know how to do this as adults

Kat: 26:08

a hundred percent I am not the parent that's like really worried about their academic performance or like whether or not they're going to go to a good college. I don't care about that. I care about them knowing how to like, be in touch with themselves and feel in their body when they're making decisions. And when. they're like, Yes about bodily and consent and stuff like that. So my Kids are actually really sort of emotionally mature in those areas. You know, my younger one in particular, who also has ADHD, they are not like a huggy kind of person. They don't really want to hug or touch anyone with they like, offer to give you a hug. It's kind of a big deal.

Val: 26:41

Well I think I would be disappointed if your parenting was not like you are, you know, like, I love that your, that your parenting in your authenticity, and I'm sure he, maybe you get pushback or, it has its own challenges, but, I just love that you are parenting out of that and, and giving them different skills that they really need, honestly

Kat: 27:03

Oh my gosh. And I can't believe it's really fucking working because the other day I was in my bed. I was in some pain. I was really, really tired. And I could hear my kids fighting and I was like, oh, I do not want to have to deal with it. So I asked them both to come in and I listened to what they were telling me. And then I was like, okay, well, we're going to talk about this in a second. So all I did was I went into living where they both were, and we've done this before. We've had like conflict resolution shit before. And so I just happened to come out and then they actually started without me, I'm going I was just physically there, but my oldest one was saying like, okay, when you did this thing, you know, it made me feel this way. And then the other one, listened without interrupting and said, I'm sorry about that. when you did this thing, you know, impacted me this way. And then, to have my older one, and apologize to my younger one. And I was like, Oh, my God. They're all like resolving their conflict. They are 10 and 12 and I was like, I didn't fucking learn these skills. I was like, holy shit. I was having a fucking party all by myself. on the couch, just being like How in the world that this happened, But it's because I've been like teaching them this. stuff you know

Val: 28:12

how wonderful Yeah

Kat: 28:14

And so Ugh Ah, thank you. they are lucky kids, you know, that's the other thing like coming out as queer, like now I have queer people in my home you know, like we did the gender episode. I shared that Like I didn't feel entirely like identified as a woman. And so like I use she and they pronouns cause I feel a little bit off the binary even though I present kind of feminine world. And so we have a lot of, there's this idea in queer culture that like you get to queer your life. you know, And again, it's just really this beautiful thing where you get to be subversive. Like, yes, there's this expectation that culture gives us. of, this is how these are, what the expectations are. This is how you're going to do. And then you're like, no, I think I need to do it this way. And so querying is just sort of making it authentic for you. And so like, I absolutely am like queering my parenting, you know? And So, oh my God, it's so fun. so then community looks different. We used to really involve in church and they still go to church with their dad, but like in my home, it's these beautiful, like queer people that come over and we have, like queer soup night. sometimes it's really so fun. So you get to raise your kids the way that makes sense to you. Yeah I know. Okay. So my ten-year-old kid Just recently, shared that they're non binary. It made me so excited for them. not that I've been hoping they were queer even though like kind of. I was hoping they were queer. Cause it's fun to be queer, but I could sort of see different things, you know, it was interesting. They were dressing a little different and it was really fun to cheer for them as they're picking up more and more of their own clothes. And it was a lot more androgyny. and so I was just open and again, when they see people in our home? Right. I couldn't believe how thrilling it was to know that my kid felt safe as a ten-year-old to like, discern this about themselves and then to be able to share it nonchalant, you know, like it wasn't a huge big deal. and then later, a week or later, so we're all watching a movie And, Jumanji Jumanji has like four high schoolers, two boys and two girls. And my friend who's also queer was making a joke, like, oh, skip to the end where these two, like female characters are lesbian lovers. And then my first born who's the super literal kid, was like, well, actually in the second. movie, this boy and this girl got together and I was like, Well, not everyone knows right away. Like, I didn't know. It was queer until much later. Maybe they won't know. And then my ten-year-old kid goes, yeah, I didn't know right away.

Val: 30:39

Oh, so Swedes, uh I love them That's so great. Is such a good story. This is a great place for us to take a break, or listen to some commercials, how you can support us in our work and we'll be right back. Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat: 31:15

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Val: 31:53

All right. And we're back

Kat: 31:55

we're back. Thank you for listening to that. We're so grateful kind listeners. Okay. So Val, your story's different, right? You didn't end up having children and I'd like to hear you kind of talk about that part of the journey. What was that like for you?

Val: 32:10

It was funny because, when our friends were, coming back, and so they sent us a picture in the Uber and I was like, enjoy the last minutes of our life until you come back to your

Kat: 32:20

life. Oh my God. That's

Val: 32:25

I was like, oh, and so, yeah, you know what. I guess kids I'd always want to kids. I always thought, and you know, at church, like we're feet would always be grabbing the babies, always grabbing them and just taking them. And he did that with his little cousins. Like he would take care of his little cousins. And so, I actually really thought that if he could be the parent that if the baby won't stop crying and I'm out there, he would literally just give it his nipple, you know, to just, you know, like meet the fuckers, they have the ties or the fake boop. He would just be like, all right, look, I'm just tricking this baby until you come back.

Kat: 33:01

Any

Val: 33:02

dad

Kat: 33:02

for him to have his shirt off. I know your husband,

Val: 33:06

exactly in his natural.

Kat: 33:09

it's not his parenting skills. It's his exhibitionist.

Val: 33:15

uh it's a buddy. Uh, so I just really never thought about a life without children. And, we finally started trying and it was just wasn't coming. And then we went through some hard years and then everyone else started to have kids in our friend group. And then he's like, all right, fine. We'll start trying. And he's just, you know, very optimistic also, like let's not talk about the negative and I'm like, look, we're getting older. So we finally went in for tests. I think I was already like 38 maybe. And, got all the tests. And I remember that. But like, The good news is you have the egg count of a 20 year

Kat: 33:52

old.

Val: 33:54

Well, probably two because of the chronic illness and body size stuff. Maybe it was like a moment or yes, you did good. I remember feeling like superwoman, all right. I still have a lot of eggs. Yes. There's hope. We started to try to do some IUI and, our fix always, traveling for business. And I swear he is not organized enough to do this on purpose, but I believe that he was always gone when it was time to do all this stuff. It's a windy twisty story. Zika. Everyone's so worried about Zika in the U S the mosquito. Yeah, that happened

Kat: 34:28

that

Val: 34:28

we were trying,

Kat: 34:29

And he was going back and forth to Brazil a lot.

Val: 34:31

Uh, Kaiser would not let, we were going to have to get like a special dispensation and he's laughing, he's laughing because he's like Americans. They're so worried about this. In Brazil, it was, it wasn't a thing anymore. And friends were still having babies and you'd just have to be careful. And, and he's like, there's no Zika in the us, you know? So we had that. And then I joked that he was like, he was literally cock blocking his own

Kat: 34:53

Oh my God,

Val: 34:55

I think they were worried about his sperm counter or there's something about that. And I'm like, he's literally cooked bugging it. He wanted to be financially to a certain place. There was also concerns on both our sides because of things that have happened in our families. he's like, I don't know. Maybe it's, affecting me subconsciously, And that was a really difficult time. And it was also mixed in with us leaving the church, which really changed all of our community. We've talked a little bit about that and then everyone else was having kids and it was incredibly lonely. So it was the mixture of not being able to start your own family and your husband's always traveling. and you've kind of lost this amazing community that you cultivated or it changed. Let's say we didn't fully lose it, but it changed. And then you start getting in your head of just why are we trying so hard at this? Like, are we forcing this? Should we be forcing this? And I had to make a decision about how much I wanted to put my body through with IVF it's no joke. It's no joke. And just the pain, the money at that point, the, the cost of it. We didn't have insurance that covered it. Yeah. Just potentially having to do it on my own because he wasn't going to be around and our age and calling a geriatric pregnancy. Right. All of that stuff. Right. It's not a kind place. And then also dealing with it alone. A lot of it, because I think that it was just about that time where people started to become more polite and they wouldn't ask you, but it was just the beginning of that, which is kind of

Kat: 36:18

Sure

Val: 36:20

yeah at first I'm like, oh, everyone must, must be talking behind our back because no one's asking us anymore. But then as time went on, I'm like, oh, that was just the culture changing where it was like, you're not supposed to ask people anymore. But then I felt so isolated and I wish I would have, I encourage everyone whatever stage you're in, that feels hard. One option is to go and find a space where people are saying, yeah, me too. no one was making the decision to not have kids. It was almost like if you had the chance to do IVF, then you should do it. Why not? Or we even looked at adoption and they were just, mm. I feel like I want to like allow adult adoptees to speak more on that. But I just think it's not a replacement. And that's maybe one of the problems is right. Adopting a child is not a replacement for your own biological, or it's not an identical swap and that that can get messy

Kat: 37:11

Yeah. it can cause harm.

Val: 37:13

it can cause harm And yeah. Cause when we were young everyone. Oh yeah. Well dad was very Christian thing. Oh, it's such a right. I remember telling you about this. Like I'm dealing with my own like saviorism complex, and then it was like, well, I have to do this because it's the hardest thing. And I remember asking myself, why do I feel like the thing I have to do is the hardest, most self-sacrificing situation. Hm. That just doesn't seem right anymore. It just sounds like more suffering. And I don't know that that's what I'm signing up for anymore. Right. I think the biggest thing was never imagining a life trying to reorder our minds around. Never having that experience, never having a quote family. And we just left it where it's like, if it's going to happen, it's gonna happen naturally. And refeed was very supportive. Like I know your body has so much pain already. And right, the chances aren't super high of an IVF. So you imagine all that money, all that pain, all of that hope, and also being highly sensitive that roller coaster really hurts. Right. I think it hurts everyone, but knowing, that's gonna really throw me for a loop and we've already been in this loop for maybe almost 10 years

Kat: 38:23

Yeah Yeah

Val: 38:25

But I was, hair-trigger crying in public, trying to be there for friends and yet also the both end of I'm so happy for you. And also I'm going to go cry

Kat: 38:35

like like when you would find out other people were

Val: 38:38

Yeah I had a birthday party. We're a three people announced that they were pregnant at my own fucking birthday party. I couldn't. And of course, they were excited. They were happy. And again, I don't even know if people were really fully aware of my struggle, but I, I cried, I bawled that whole, that whole night after it was all over, we had a great time, but I think two people were pregnant and then like three people announced that they were pregnant. But also, I think two of them maybe had a miscarriage after that. So it's like we're all going through our own struggle. And, and I wasn't mad at them, but it was just like, even that, even though my own celebration, I couldn't get away from it. I actually remember going to church. And during that time I actually could not my tears. I couldn't, and I'd have to leave because it was, it was kind of embarrassing at how my body was reacting

Kat: 39:30

you know, that's interesting. Cause I suggested a while ago, like maybe we'll do a whole episode on. grief, But grief is a really unwieldy, powerfully powerful thing. Like we get healed enough that we can feel our feelings, but then fuck, you gotta feel that shit And it hurts.

Val: 39:46

Yeah. And it doesn't go away as quickly as I think our culture wants it to. Right Like

Kat: 39:51

is terrible at holding space for grief. We don't understand it at all

Val: 39:54

did I share this cool. I, I didn't make it up. I found on the internet, but it was like, why don't we call emotional baggage, our grief case. We missed a great opportunity for a good joke. I talk about what are you putting in your briefcase, but I will carry that grief for the rest of my life, even though, and I'll talk in a minute about some woo stuff that happens. They'll kind of like get a level of healing, but I was waiting for some friends and I just glanced over. And these people were kind of young for grandparents, it was in Florida, they were all tan and, and they were showing each other pictures of the first grandkid. And, they're just so happy and everyone was so excited and it just hit me like, yeah, you'll never have that. Right. So just, but I don't weep and fall into an emotional ball anymore but one day I think it was during the pandemic. I had found this music, right? These sound baths. Oh sound baths. It feels so good in your skin. Just like to be able to relax and de-stress, and, and even heal, like there's some research on different hurts of music that can be healing What is it? Yeah. It's like a frequency of sound.

Kat: 40:58

Okay And it impacts our body in ways that are like potentially healing.

Val: 41:03

I mean, they're doing studies on plants, different kinds of music, or they talked nice to it and did it. So, I mean, come on. Right. I'm the same guy that did the sound bass. He had different sound best for shockers. And like, I'm not that I'm not into all that yet, but I was like, well, let me go to the heart shocker, and when I felt sad or I needed to distress, I would just put it on. And so I got in my hammock and the sun was on my face. I put the heart shocker music on and I bawled my eyes out for the good 15 minute. And I really felt like it was releasing, which is interesting because back in college, I remember we would have these praise and worship nights or heatedly prayer nights. And then my freshman year, there was a season where I cried through every single one of them. Like we being, and I really felt I was releasing a lot of myself hatred or just some of the self confidence of I was releasing it. So I got up from that hammock, knowing that something had shifted, I was like, whoa, something just happened in that hammock. And ever since then, it's not tender anymore it's like a healed scar. And then you've said some great things about just again, you're not trying to give me toxic positivity or look on the bright side, but you said, you know, you have a lot more margin in your life to give to people. And I do and actually you've got to love the life that you have. Right. And people like the must be nice. Like we got to stop that, oh, it must be nice to travel the world though. It must be nice to like sleep and not be tired. Well, yeah, it is. But you know what? It also must be nice to just have sex and have a child pop out nine months later, very easily. Right. Like must be nice to go through something that you wanted. Right. So I think I had to go through a period of time of also being okay with yes, we have an amazing life. We can travel, we can do all these things. And also there's a very big longing for that thing

Kat: 42:49

Yeah.

Val: 42:49

but also it's okay. That it didn't happen.

Kat: 42:53

Yeah. You know, that's the principle of choosing to just embrace, what is your reality? It can be really empowering to just be like this is my story now, you know, and we can't always control outcome. Right. You just allow it, you just accept it. And then sometimes the acceptance can turn into like there's space for, for it to be beautiful and good. like you found a lot of beauty in your life. There's so much beauty you know, there's this party that you're going to throw and I'm like, I can't wait to come to the party, you know.

Val: 43:24

There's not a lot of mothers with young children on the pickleball courts There are there's not. You said we were bi-coastal and you know, now we're getting another tug from another friend. Just come live here too. It's yeah, those are beautiful things that would have been very difficult to have with children. Maybe we could have made it work, but there is a beauty in the life that we have.

Kat: 43:43

Absolutely There is, You know, I'm going to circle back to the fact that you said it's an unexplained infertility, right? And so some of pain had to do with your relationship with your body and inhabiting a larger body. And I just want to say too, I think it's important that we know like infertility can happen to any person of any body size. I happen to inhabit a quite large body and did get pregnant, you know? And so like, I'm aware of in fat circles, in fact, community where people who live in large bodies are gathering together and reclaiming the word fat. Like there's a whole conversation about how the medical industry treats fat mothers, right. Or a fat people, with uteruses, who want to have babies. And So I just want to, before we close our episode, like say fat people do get pregnant and um, have healthy babies and, everyone's story is different.

Val: 44:33

We have to stop blaming everything on people's

Kat: 44:35

size Yeah

Val: 44:36

true It's literally, it's literally not true. And I live in a smaller fat body, so I I know that privilege I have, but it affects me as well, where there was so much fear that I couldn't really maybe go to the doctors and talk about it because they were going to talk about my weight, which, isn't as big of a determinant as, society has said, it has been. So yeah, we just have to live the life we're in, and, and in my program, reset yourself for love. I talked to women about all the compulsory things that people are saying you have to do, you want to do right. But you really get to choose. I think you should have a thoughtful decision talk to people who are parents and who are not parents, and it really is a choice you have. And I wanted to share my story because I think it doesn't get a lot of, airtime or, you know, that there are people in the face of infancy till it's easy to not go the full way and be sort of childless by circumstance, but also by choice, because we could have, we could have done different things and. You know, in the end, this is what we're choosing for now. So, I do think I had to recognize the grief with my body for another thing, right? The chronic illness, not being the size of society, wants it to be all of these. Like how's angry with my body in another way, it was letting me down. And just being able to grieve that and mend my relationship with my body that okay, I still love you and respect you and you couldn't do this thing,

Kat: 46:03

you know, I wasn't diagnosed with my chronic illness until after I had two kids Quick, quick succession. Right. I had no fucking idea that it would progress my chronic illness. And, you know, it's funny. There was a time where I was like, oh my God, having these kids like my body, like really, really hurt my body And like, I have these two like incredible small humans. I live a very different life now and we don't know what life is gonna throw at us, but we, we have the ability. to Show up and feel our feelings and like own what's real about our lives. It's like alchemy. We really, we can turn suffering into something so fucking radiant and so fucking beautiful. I think that's amazing

Val: 46:51

it well, and to be honest, the more that I struggled in our journey progressed, the more I was hearing these stories, people cause people are afraid to talk about it. Right. Cause it makes you a bad mom, if you talk about like, yeah. I mean I don't know if it was self-deprecating but when, um, of my dad's old friends were like, oh my gosh, wait, how old are you? And he's like, wow, you look super young. I'm like, yeah, it's cause we didn't have kids. Maybe I should stop saying that and just take the compliment. But then also I think it is. The reality that we don't talk about, kids literally take the Calcium out of your bones right out of your teeth, whatever, like they're leaching of your breasts right. So I don't think we talk about the cost and actually I think I counted the cost and again, we were still trying, so it wasn't like that was stopping me. But I think I also realized, I have no idea what this is going to do to my body and I'm already struggling a lot. So it's okay to decide for my own health instead of the sacrifice to bring a

Kat: 47:45

in Right Yeah absolutely Yeah And, you know, that's the thing like your life is beautiful and valuable and, it's not connected to whether or not you choose parenthood. Like my life, you know, even though I am a parent, like my life is not about the fact I'm a

Val: 47:59

parents it again.

Kat: 48:01

life is not about the fact that my parents, I do not live for my children. They are not the only source of joy in my life. They are a source of joy, and my life is not centered. around them. No, but my, my body taught me this, you

Val: 48:14

Yeah. And I think you've, I think families that, that could get a little bit of that, that

Kat: 48:19

and Oh my God Of

Val: 48:22

course a friend was struggling and I was like, I think you need to find your pleasure and your kids will be happier because you're happier and you're leaving room for them to find pleasure, but you need to find pleasure. You don't have to sacrifice yourself in the altar of parenting to this degree.

Kat: 48:36

No, no. We have to like, if we want our kids to be able to be free, we have to fucking figure out how to get free. in front of them.

Val: 48:43

Yeah

Kat: 48:44

Get free. It's not easy. I cry so much Val

Val: 48:49

This was the same man. You cried again. I love it. I'm always here for it, but you know what I will say? I was reflecting to you that I'm like, man, I just feel so happy in this period of life right now. And not that we have to be laughing or crying in the same, seasons, but when I look back, it was a pretty fucking long, sad season. And obviously there was, there was joy in it. But the overarching thing was grief and sadness and it took a while.

Kat: 49:14

Wow,

Val: 49:15

can I tell you one last woo woo thing, January, 2019. No idea that pandemics coming, although right. We, we kinda know, and I'm sitting there at the beach. We went to Maui with some friends or FICO's traveling, please go to Hawaii while I'm traveling. He said, okay, fine. And I'm sitting on the beach by myself and I see a whale breach and jump right up into the air,

Kat: 49:39

kind

Val: 49:39

of at the horizon. And then I see another one. Jump into the air. I don't know if it was the same winners, friends, and then I'm like, okay, am I seeing things? And then a third time, the whale jumps into the air and I hear another guy go, do you see that? So then I knew I wasn't seeing things. And I was like, that's a sign. I was like, what does it mean when you see a whale? And it was about creativity and relationships and all this stuff that I was like, Ooh, I'm going to claim this bad debit, Gavin. I got my husband home without much traveling for like the better part of two years. Uh, I do feel like my friends and there's some research that shows like until about the age five is when your friends with kids will resurface after five and three to five. It's like, it's rough going. So a lot of our friends resurfaced out of that, right? Some of our friends, we surfaced out of their grief. I'm getting planted in the community, finding it pickleball, which again seems so funny, but so many people are writing about how it brings so much joy and community in their lives. And then starting this podcast, starting this other part of my business, my therapy practice, growing and the creativity that I'm able to have. And so, I do feel like I've emerged out of a grief season. And it feels good. So that's, what's bringing me

Kat: 51:05

Oh, I love it. I love it. So beautiful. Val, I'm watching you just like fucking shines. It's radiant. You are an incredible human I feel so lucky. Like we've gotten to know each other for so long. right And then to Watch you just be who you are and. to love so well. And All of your, like joy and enthusiasm, I'm going to say that like that's, what's bringing me pleasure is just like, enjoying you is bringing me pleasure.

Val: 51:32

Oh I love it. Oh, well, thanks for being together with me again today. I love you

Kat: 51:38

I love you too. Bye Val.