3 Questions with Kat & Val

Body Liberation-You Can Get it

• Season 1 • Episode 11

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Body peace is our birthright. Kat and Val manage to laugh their asses off while also dropping some big wisdom about our right to make peace with our bodies exactly as they are. Val gives us a pickle ball update and does her best pitch for you all to check out this super inclusive and accessible sport! Kat shares about their body liberation journey and how it fed into what they call their queer sexual awakening. Kat is really good at dating now!

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat:

Good morning,

Val:

morning, everybody. This is our second try, because the first one we tried to be calm and it didn't work. Great. That's not us.

Kat:

I was like, that's not authentic. That's not

Val:

that's boring. That's not us.

Kat:

We have big biofields

Val:

We have strong biofields. We need to just be amped up.

Kat:

We gotta be us. We gotta be me.

Val:

We do

Kat:

And we got these big Bible fields we're excited

Val:

biofields and get excited And it's just all tumbling

Kat:

totally. And I really fucking pumped about today's episode because we were talking about body liberation and it's body liberation. You can get it, but you know what? I really want it to be called body liberation. You can mother fucking get it.

Val:

And when you say you, you mean you, you mean, me, myself,

Kat:

mean me, but also, I mean, the collective you, I mean, all of us, like this is available to all of us, like, like feeling good in your bodies, your fucking birthright. Yes.

Val:

say that again?

Kat:

good. And at home in your body is your mother fucking birth, right?

Val:

Oh,

Kat:

I know.

Val:

That's so amazing. And yet, For so many of us, for so long, we were told to hand our bodies

Kat:

taught, told, preached at hate your body. Yes. Motherfuckers

Val:

it. No, that is fuckery. Stop the fuckery.

Kat:

Yeah. We're done with all that fuckery.

Val:

Oh, why? what does it do? It's just terrible. Oh, we've been on a journey and we both have stories to tell about that. And who knows? maybe this will have to be two parts, but it's a big conversation and you know, what? we're not afraid for it to be

Kat:

No we

Val:

big isn't bad

Kat:

space mother fuckers. I think I'll have to swear an awful lot. In this

Val:

Yes We are also pumped. because guess Who is now a pickleball

Kat:

Oh my God. Pick a bunch.

Val:

Okay.

Kat:

Do you tell Val, do you tell,

Val:

So this past week, I had a tournament, We haven't done a pickup update. in while and me and my sweet partner we won gold.

Kat:

you

Val:

very sweet. You were asking for the updates. And yeah, we were in the playoffs and I'm in the under 15 league, division. And my partner's just a little smidge over. And so we, that was our joke about how she had play with the young kids. And So there was one young team and they were very good and we had to beat them, come from behind and actually, all the other spectators were like beat them, beat them beat the young kids. So it just felt so good. I sent you some pictures. And I

Kat:

You looked real cute. Know, I love sporty vows, 40,000 good luck.

Val:

I started calling it my liquid courage cause I have a lot of liquid lipstick. And So, you know, I put on my liquid

Kat:

courage, so you're playing pickup ball with your lipstick

Val:

yes, almost every day. I go to the court with lipstick. and some Chanel perfume. Okay. I'm wearing Chanel to the court. I'm not as like big on my outfits yet because. Okay. I bought this beautiful, tennis skirt. but It was like black, or Like, what is this like see-through and it just looks incredibly fancy. like, like dressy. I know. And so I was like, you can't have an outfit like that. And then

Kat:

oh, you're like, I gotta be good enough for this outfit

Val:

Like when you're just walking down the street. you don't have to perform, if you fall in a really good outfit That, if you're so dressed up and then trip like that. is So embarrassing.

Kat:

So the better you look when you fall, it makes it worse. That's what you're trying to

Val:

And so like, if you have like a real fancy outfit on there, like who's this And then he like you choke or whatever. So I wanted to make sure, like, I was a gold medal champion. first before I tried wearing that skirt, it makes me feel good Lipstick my perfume on I'm ready to go. And then we, you know, we have this like group chat.

Kat:

And the pickleball group

Val:

In the pickleball group and you know, everyone's cheering each other and you don't go for it you can do. it. And so I'm like, okay, thank you. For everybody's support. And you know, now they're going to be no living with me, So so someone who I think, shout out to my pickleball buddy. He said, yeah, I think Val is going to make us call her gold medalist Val. from now on. And So then he said, I think we just need to call her the notorious GMV. gold metal, Val. And I was like, I will totally take notorious GMV.

Kat:

I love it so much

Val:

So it's going, in the back of a jacket. or something notorious GMV,

Kat:

I can't wait to see your jacket.

Val:

but wait, wait, this is mark. And then I'm talking to my other partner sorry. Let me let me back up. Early on playing the young kids I fell, I did a stop, drop, and roll. I ruined one of my favorite leggings. That's all right. I didn't roll my ankle. we have weak ankles in our family. But I looked at my partner and I said, Hey, did we win that point? She was like once you hit the ground, I stopped playing. And I was like, no, please. step Over my cold dead body, to win the point. We need to win the match. And she was like, okay, like in a metal round, I'll do that. But this is like our second game. okay, fine. But this is what I'm expecting of you. So I told that story and my other partner said, yeah, Wounds heal, but metals last forever. That's going to be on the back of the jacket. too.

Kat:

my God. It's so good.

Val:

And then so that partner, I told him, I'm like, look, I really promise you that I will not get us kicked out for my swearing. Actually pick a ball. Is it respectable, smart? Well, you're not supposed to use foul language. and I've actually, got comfortable and told some people over deem some, by the way. Yes. Thank you. That they're like, wow, how do you know so much about dimsum? but I was like, well, my first job in San Francisco was working for a church that was predominantly Chinese. And they're like, what? Wait a minute, wait, wait, what? You were a pastor, by the language you use on the pickleball court. I would never have guessed.

Kat:

Oh my God.

Val:

So I told my mixed doubles partner. I promise you I'm not good as kicked out of this tournament for swearing only for fist fighting. We're going to get kicked out. It's because I'm fist fighting.

Kat:

Oh my God. There's the aggression. That's what I love. That's hot now.

Val:

I tell her, feet like, fuck you. He goes, yeah, there's my champion.

Kat:

That's the kind of energy we're looking for.

Val:

He's like, that's right. Come on, come on. Where's my champion. No one Rafeek was So funny. I was trying to FaceTime him with our metals Right. I wore the metal to lunch and my partner like a respectable adult put hers in her purse. No, we need to wear these. Cause we haven't FaceTime or fake yet. So and he has been so excited, He like, takes pictures, old pictures of me. I don't even know. where he finds them. And then he like puts the emoji for the gold medal. over them and sends them to me.

Kat:

Oh, that's so fun.

Val:

I feel like I, have some credit now. I

Kat:

Oh

Val:

Oh And then I have to tell you. Right. And if you listen to my best friend's wedding. boundaries, that episode you hear about my amiga my mom and my best friends, was my husband's twin for so many reasons. And she was my over-hype

Kat:

twin. They're like.

Val:

They're twins, not from the same womb. That's what I'm going to start telling people.

Kat:

Perfect.

Val:

I like people to be just kind of a little bit confused on that one for a minute. Cause I they're like, how come her feet has an accent? And he said different rooms, different continents. Okay. So she is my over-hype girl I tell her something and she multiplies it by 10 and it tells other people you think that over-hype girl would be better than I'm a girl it's can be problematic. but She's like, that's what, how I see you. And So she's been calling me a pickleball champion for a while now and now. I'm like, no, I'm actually the pickleball champion. So she's like I saw your future. What else do you want me

Kat:

to say?

Val:

into existence? I'm Like, I will get back to you. with a list. All right, we're doing

Kat:

Oh, manifesting some champion.

Val:

So that was amazing to finally be a pick-up ball champion So onto the next

Kat:

That was just this weekend. I'm so proud of you.

Val:

So that felt really, really and if you haven't heard me to sing the praises of pickleball, or if you're looking for a sport, if you played any sort of racket sport or have sort of like a sporty spice, that just, hasn't been seeing the light of day, It's a very accessible sport. It is easy to learn. Obviously you know, there's so much nuance and, skills to learn, but it's easy to pick up. And since we're talking about body liberation. today, It really is a sport that your body size doesn't really matter that much.

Kat:

That's awesome. That's awesome.

Val:

I feel like pickleball is a distributor. It's a disruptor for all the bullshit for the fuckery, for the fuckery. And I've noticed again. Right? You, you you've gotten comfortable in your own body. I've noticed that when I play with people who don't know me after I hit a couple shots, they're like, Ooh, she's bringing it. Oh, look how good you are. And I was like, well, what, what did you expect? Like, why are they not expecting me to be good?

Kat:

Yeah. People make assumptions.

Val:

Well, I actually said something last time. Cause that's what felt good to me was to actually say something back. Cause I was like, wait a minute. They're like, oh, I see. She came to play. And I was like, oh, don't let this charming charismatic facade fool you. I kind of put it on that like, oh, you just thought I was silly and funny You didn't expect me to bring it. oh dang. And people are they're says to me up on the size of my body.

Kat:

It happens. That's what we do. That's what our culture taught us all to do.

Val:

It's so is, and we, talk about check your bias. and think about the things that are coming up automatically, but, you know, I, have a pickle ball. We call them the mayor of shout out to the and he's 60 something. And he was like, man, I'll tell you about, it's hard to lose to an 80 year old. And the 80 year old was good. He was playing multiple times you know, like a day. But it it disrupts everything we think about ageism and sexism, the internalized fat phobia. And it's just so fun. And for the most part, Everyone is so everyone's so supportive and fun and helpful. So if you're looking for a sport. just look it up. So

Kat:

good way to find some community. And we've talked a lot about like gamifying our lives, right. And we need joy. And when he pleasure, we need to fucking have fun. Right? Again, we've been in this pandemic a long goddamn time. We actively need to be open to like, what are the things that are bringing us pleasure and joy and fun and silliness. And we need that. I'm

Val:

We

Kat:

happy pickleball, is that

Val:

And I've said it before, but I think it, serves to say it again especially cause I have a chronic illness where Hey, do you feel good? You want to go work out no, my fucking body hurts time. I'm in pain. I'm But it's so fun

Kat:

Okay. So you're a super fun thing is bringing you all this pleasure to do is, pick a ball like, and I was like, oh, I know what my pickleball is. It's dating. That's why

Val:

and sexy time

Kat:

my God. All of it. But it, it energizes me. It makes me excited. Like I'm getting some physical activities

Val:

is work up a sweat. That's fun.

Kat:

I know I know. And so when I came out as queer, you know, it was still during the pandemic. And so I didn't get to do, you know, really much like in-person dating, but man, fuck. As soon as we were vaccinated, it's like, Hey. Hey, queer people.

Val:

Yeah. Oh, that's

Kat:

Yeah. And that's too, like when I think about like body liberation and like how my queer journey is such a big part of it, it feels so like strange and amazing to be having, experiencing and experienced a sexual awakening while inhabiting the most marginalized body I've ever been in, you know, the largest body, the most physical limitations I've ever had, Again, we get to be free from all the bullshit, all the stuff that says that my body is not worthy of desire and pleasure, it's just made of lies and we don't have to believe the lies anymore. And you start to spend time with other humans who also don't believe those lies and you're like, fuck, she can goddamn get it.

Val:

So if you are not picking up on what cat is saying causing There is a large number of people who want to do sexual things with her. That's a cast thing.

Kat:

Is accurate.

Val:

no lies detected.

Kat:

Good motherfucking get it. Yeah. Okay. So I can feel that I'm getting a little like embarrassed now, but it was a lot from when I first learned about body liberation to where I am now. My first exposure to what we're saying, body liberation. Or sometimes I call it fat liberation because it's important that we reclaim the word fat because fat,

Val:

you talk more about

Kat:

yeah, it was wielded as a fucking weapon for most of us, you know, and that you still feel it in here today in the larger culture. But with any marginalized group of people, it's the thing you like reclaim the word that was once waged against you. The fat liberation movement has been around for a long time. And my first exposure to it wasn't even until 2016. And so that makes me a little sad that I, again, I was a full grown adult and just had no idea because mainstream culture is so fucking loud with the diet culture, nonsense, conformity, nonsense, I didn't know that they've been all these people for like, over 50 years. Like, you know, there's, this let's say NAFA stands for national.

Val:

Association

Kat:

there's a national organization that's been around for I know I was on their board for a little while. I was literally on the

Val:

to you by an ADHD moment.

Kat:

Totally. Anyway, you know, well, over 50 years of people saying, Hey, we're a marginalized group that deserve protection under the law. And you know, and also like to just be allowed to live without, people just giving a shit all the time. Like any other marginalized group on mainstream culture says, oh, you're different. You don't get to belong. And we're going to punish you for being different. I'm so sad that our culture decides to do that. The fact that it's one thing to be ostracized, but then to also be punished, you

Val:

it's all your fault.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. And we've learned a lot of things about fatness. Like you were going to speak to some of that too. Diet culture has really oversimplified. What, what they think fitness is. They think it's calories in calories out. That is a big one. Fucking

Val:

Yeah

Kat:

Bodies are way more complex than that. And body shape and size is, is not meant to be Euro-centric and one size fits all. There is no ideal body type that is all made up nonsense.

Val:

diversity exists.

Kat:

It does exist. Yeah. And if some people can be like, you've heard the phrase, like they're just naturally thin the wealth, the same is true. Somebodies are naturally not thin. That's not a moral failing. That's your genetics, you know?

Val:

yeah. A hundred percent.

Kat:

And then some of us have like other things, you know, like I mentioned, in a different podcast, I have something called lymphedema. You can follow the link in the show notes. If you're curious about it, I've dated a lot of people that have something called PCOS and that really impacts body size. there's stuff that you don't know, someone shit, you don't know anything fucking about

Val:

medications. Oh, last episode was about infertility, IVF, the the weight you gain and all of that.

Kat:

Totally.

Val:

I'll say more about it later, but there's so many reasons why bodies get larger? And, And I think that it's not the goal to make them smaller. And It's not bad that they're larger, but we judge, bodies so harshly By that. And that it must have been a moral failure. It must've been something you did.

Kat:

Yeah Yeah. Culture has pounded and pounded and pounded that That bias at

Val:

It's also The time in history. Right. If you look back, right. I There's lots of memes out there, about, I'm just living in the wrong time period. Like all the statues of voluptuous women with like soft bellies, just lounging being fed grapes. you know, It also meant that you had enough money that your family was not starving

Kat:

course. Yeah. Yeah. I

Val:

So it's Just silly. Right? If you think about eyebrows, the early nineties, two thousands, my luscious forest, like brows, I plucked them to oblivion. and Now that's what's in so we can, intellectually see these things are. happening. It's fads and

Kat:

Yeah. And I think you do, you need to sort of step out enough and questions and things that have just been drilled at you for forever. You know, a lot of us don't do that. I don't, I wish that more of us did, but when you started to be around more and more people who are like, oh yeah, all this is made up, you're questioning all the things that, are just cultural norms, you know?

Val:

the default and the autopilot That's why we talk a lot about slowing down.

Kat:

Oh, totally. And if you were raised as a fem person in the world we've been taught to sort of commiserate constantly about being hungry about whatever diet we're on, about the foods that we can and cannot eat. Right. We've been constantly socialized to be like, oh, just a tiny bit of dessert. I'm trying to be good. Fuck you. Food is not moral.

Val:

no, it's that

Kat:

is not

Val:

well and Here's what keeps it going, Kat? is that. People think they are moral and better than the other person. And I think that's what stops us from letting go of some of this, because, oh, if they're not morally deficient because of that behavior, then I can't be morally superior But because I do that

Kat:

Oh my God. A hundred percent. And see, that's the thing we've talked about before. When you're in the nucleus of culture and this homogeny of like, this is the ideal life you're supposed to be living, this is how you like get to have belonging and get to have all of the, like the perks and privileges of being white, of being thin of being educated, of being, you know, those, those kinds of things that we think of the most accepted people in our culture. Right. So when you're receiving the benefits and our culture, like the perks and the privileges that you know, conformity will get, you, you want to hold onto your social standing, right? So like social currency, like if you're white, if you're thin, if you're, educated these things, they create social, beautiful social currency. Right. But here's the thing about that. It is also made up, I don't know that that person that has all that social currency is even fucking happy. You know what I mean? Like they're just playing this game and they still. External things. They might check all the boxes. They've got all these extra things that says you have belonging, but do they have authenticity? Do they get to go to bed and be happy at night or be contented? Or do they even fucking know what pieces, you know, like that's the thing like we talked about the last episode is that when you, when you like go to the mat with yourself, when you like do the inside fucking work, then the external is just proven over and over and over again to be goddamn irrelevant. You know, like those, I mean, there's some both on there because we do still need to be community. We need belonging, but you get to find it with people that also are on their own journey of like, yeah, let's be authentic. And let's, let's like enjoy, what's beautiful about our diversity together and not other one another, you know, I can look at you and see your divinity and call bullshit and all the like cultural trappings of belonging. But you and I can have belonging.

Val:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

so much better, you

Val:

know, I even had friendships you know female conversations about dieting and actually like, oh, that was a large part of what we talked about. how sad. Commiserating about, oh, we just can't lose pounds or,

Kat:

you and I used to have those goddamn conversations. I

Val:

Oh we could go, we could go down a deep

Kat:

hole. Yeah.

Val:

There was a great time where you and I, was very low. Just having moved out here and I had a monthly meeting that was in I think it was Stockton, California just so happens. You were there. So I come over the night

Kat:

Yeah This was like 20 years

Val:

Yeah. And then as soon as you moved my meetings, moved,

Kat:

oh yeah. You didn't have to go to

Val:

I didn't have to go to stocks anymore. I have this it's clear as day you had to go do something that night. And I was like sleeping in the bed or whatever, with, with the way down and we talk so much And if you've seen that documentary. there was so much, more fuckery

Kat:

so the way down book is like this Christian kinda got kind of culty, right.

Val:

Oh oh 100% her and her church is a terribly cultish, And you know,

Kat:

the weight loss, it was about weight loss.

Val:

and Honestly, there was nothing new under the sun. It was a lot of intuitive eating stuff which, and mindful eating. But then the second half of the book. which Intuitively, I never wanted to read because it was talking about the bondages of slavery to food. And I was like, Nope, I don't need that. But yeah, we even bonded over that. For a while.

Kat:

Yeah, yeah

Val:

but where are we now? Well, actually let's, break for a commercial you want to hear our charming. commercials? Thank you for supporting us. Let's Take a break. We come back. Capitol, tell us her origin story, of body liberation, where she can get it. Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat:

Living in a culture that preaches conformity to narrow beauty standards. It feels really good to own art that celebrates honors and glorifies diverse bodies that mystic art uses photos from real people to create beautiful images that make all of us more free. Get yours today. Shop fat mystic on Etsy and follow that underscore mystic underscore art on Instagram.

Val:

Okay. All right, Kat, so Start with the origin story of your body liberation?

Kat:

Well, okay. I was going to tell you that it started with this American life episode on NPR where IRA, glass interviews Lindy west and Roxanne gay, and another person called Elena baker. And that's really true. That's 2016, but I also had this memory of being at a bookstore. Remember when, like everyone go to Barnes and Nobles just to hang out, like, you know, and I was at this bookstore and Leonard Nimoy had made this like black and white. Yes. Yeah. He, he did this beautiful photography book of fat bodied people like dancing. And like, it was black was really like high art. It was fat people and they were naked. And I was like, oh my God. I remember being in this bookstore and being like, my body was like hot in a way that was. Like I felt like kind of shame a little bit, you know, like, cause I would never, my naked body was never something that should be viewed. And so like other people that are like in bodies, similar to mine that are willing to be naked. And, and, but I was so drawn to it. I was like embarrassed that I was like, someone could see me looking at it, but I, I also like the magnetism and like the hunger to like see myself somehow, God, it was a lot of fucking feelings. I don't even know what year that was, but it was sometime before I heard this, particular podcast episode. So skipping ahead to like it's 2016, this episode was released in June. It's called call me fat. Cause the word fat was a real tricky word too. Like it's just something I dropped out of. My vocabulary would never use the word fat. It was a

Val:

I just say it still is? And I have to be careful around people that aren't, that liberated with it. right. Cause it is, it's just a description And like you said, reclaiming, it.

Kat:

Yeah. I don't hang out with anyone. Like isn't already up to speed. Come on. People let's get up to speed. Fat is just a normal neutral term. Yeah. There's no morality around it. So you know, you talk about like the stories we tell ourselves, right? Like words can be real, fucking powerful and painful if we have a story attached to it. So we can hear those stories though. That's what it means to be free motherfuckers. You hear those

Val:

Yes

Kat:

Okay. So the name of the episode, again, they're trying to be a little like, you know, controversial, like. And so you've got these three different women describing their journeys with their body. And, and then Lindy west was sort of the most like fat liberated. And she wrote a book called shrill and I right away read that book. And I was like, oh my God, people are fat. yeah, I'm fat. So what, they're not apologizing for their bodies. They're just taken up on the space. And I remember I, again, like having a very visceral reaction as I'm listening I could feel almost like every cell in my body

Val:

like

Kat:

arrested as I was listening and, and like, like hungry for something. And it was hungry for freedom, right. Because our birthright literally is to have peace in our own fucking body. You know, like all of us were robbed of that. And we get to reclaim that back.

Val:

here's the thing. in a lot of my trauma training. It talks about the dissonance dissonance creates trauma dissonance creates suffering, so if you're like, this is my body, and I am getting the message I'm inherently good as a being, but then it's like, your body is

Kat:

I know I

Val:

That creates dissonance. It creates suffering It creates pain.

Kat:

Yeah, your body is your home.

Val:

It is

Kat:

is your home. You're going to live in it until you die. And so like what better effort? What could you make than to just make peace with your body? And I'm not pretending like it's an easy fucking journey, I am not making light of the fact that, you know, I'm like, I'm like about six years in and I've come a long fucking way. But I also did like a real deep dive. Like if you look at my art page, like I've been looking at fat bodies constantly and retraining my mind of what's acceptable and what's beautiful and what's, what's normalized. And I surround myself with people that are also doing this kind of work.

Val:

It's so interesting because I did read the research shows that the more like a culture shows you. a more diverse picture of bodies, The more people are attracted to

Kat:

Yes Well, attraction is made up fucking too. Jesus Christ. Okay. First of all, people are attracted to other human people for a lot more reasons than just their external, right. But we live in a culture that has been feeding us a very narrow margin of what is attractive. And we are just, our brains are very susceptible to that bullshit. So if all you're exposing yourself to, as mainstream culture and media, you probably aren't attracted to someone in a body like me. Right. But if you, like, if you spent time with me,

Val:

if you saw some of her pictures. Oh

Kat:

no, seriously, like, like that's the thing. And actually you and I, I was teasing you about this just a little bit. Like how all my queer friends have crushed us on you.

Val:

not just a little bit gap

Kat:

I was leaning in real hard. I know. I know, but it's because, you know, I just want you to know and appreciate that the joy of what that feels like, you know, like I even a long-term marriage, I know you love your husband and Rafeek is great. All of those things, but also it feels really good to know that You don't have to conform to this, mainstream idea of what is attractive to be attracting people, right? Like you are living in your authenticity and your life is full of joy and your shiny and you were so sparkly. My friend group, or they're like, damn Val can get it. And I was like, I don't want to, I tried so hard

Val:

okay. Dear listeners, we took a little danger to Napa there Actually, there was no wine. in. But We're talking I think about like deep things. And then all of a sudden, Kat goes, bow, come on, you're going to clean up. Like, we're gonna, we're going to clean up. That's what I thought you said And I really thought you were going to talk about our business strategy. of how this podcast was going to lead into like this giant platform, blah, blah, blah. As you talked a little bit, I was like, wait, you're talking about me getting sex.

Kat:

I was like that you can clean up if you want to do, you could clean up.

Val:

Well, I'll tell you, I think it is Healthy. And we talked about about flirting and just how we can live outside of like wanting something to happen or not. Right. And just being free with those kinds of comments and, and having attention from any and all genders. It does feel great. And I think it's helping me in the, on my journey. So I am grateful to it

Kat:

yeah, cause it's the wholeness of you, right? Like to, to acknowledge one another as whole people includes acknowledging one another as sexual beings. Right. Like we're deconstructing from all the purity culture staff and fatness, you know, and fatphobia was definitely mixed into purity culture stuff. For me, it was. Yeah. Yeah so like you get to like reclaim the fact that you are alive in about a year in and you get to have body peace and then even body joy, you get to do something fun, like play pickleball and be a goddamn champion. But also you get to be like, yeah. And I'm a sexual being. And these other humans that I come in contact with just acknowledge it. And sometimes it's like a fun, bantery kind of energy because the humans that you are around are just acknowledging you as a full dynamic human being. Fuck, love that shit. So this someday though

Val:

but, you know, you are blowing my mind in in a little bit because it's, I guess I'm just thinking back to purity culture and just where it was like all of that was stripped, even though, right. Your body's a temple and, and and there's, I mean, anyway there's this fear again, it's the purity culture that it's all on the, on the quote, female, right. To, make sure that they are not enticing or, or making any temptations happen. So it was almost like, oh, nobody gives me any sexual attention. Yeah, Right. nobody

Kat:

well you had to conduct yourself in a way to never welcome it either. Right. And again, the onus was always on the

Val:

It was always the female's fault. And they must've done something. and it was kind of funny. I'm thinking about it now. It's like, oh please. Don't these don't notice these voluptuous breasts here, you know, like, but also it's a real mind. Fuck. But also you needed to be a certain size but you also needed to be pleasing to the male gaze. It's such

Kat:

my God It

Val:

Yeah. You know? Yeah, I

Kat:

fucking bullshit shit.

Val:

But what it does to you as a, as a whole person, that's a thing cat. We weren't told to show up as a whole person. You and I were talking about this and yeah, I've having some grown men like come up to me and tell me well for FISA on, around, and like a very joking, playful way, so we joke about that, but it's like, my body's the largest has been again. There's the,. Automatic I'm judged by the size of my body. Isn't Right. I'm Noticing that even as I'm talking and you said something, but you're embodied. Can you please say more about that?

Kat:

Okay. So listeners, I wonder if you guys can, can relate to this experience. There is a way to like exist in life where you're just, you're just doing the next thing that's expected of you or that you have to do. But when you've spent some time getting to know yourself and doing some of the internal work, like maybe you're using meditation, you're being very present with yourself. Okay. So there's this shift that happens where you actually become. Embodied, there's some things about our culture where we, we like escape and we leave our body all the time. What's that called? When you do that? Oh my God. Many, many of us are almost nearly, constantly dissociating. I absolutely did that. It's, it's a very useful coping

Val:

mechanism.

Kat:

It works, you know, but it's not forever. you can use it for a little while, but then the point of life. It's to like, know yourself and get fucking free. That's what I think that's the point in my life I've decided is to know myself and to get fucking free. So what I see in you Val, is I see that you've done all this work and I see that you are acting. In your body and the energy of you being alive and shiny and joyous and authentically you while inhabiting like deeply, truly inhabiting your body is goddamn radiant. It doesn't surprise me that people all over you and every circle you're in are flirting with you. You're a beautiful and attractive, but it's so much more than that. It's that you're living and embodied life. And I'm tell you, like in the body that I live in is extremely marginalized. Like you and I went and we had this little day trip and we can't go to any fucking restaurant. Do you know why? Because I can't fucking send any goddamn seat. We had to like, make sure they had seats that were going to accommodate me, that weren't going to actually hurt my body. Right. And so, yeah, there are definitely hardships and frustrations about living in the body that I inhabit. Right. And we could talk all about that, like how we need to do better as a culture to accommodate all different body sizes. But I also am fucking embodied. And people goddamn can see that. And that is what is so attractive. That is why I actually can get it. That's why I don't actually experience scarcity around dating and dating partners. I mean, fuck. I remember when you and I were single, when we were Christian, all I knew was scarcity and all I knew was longing and this needy wistfulness of someone to overlook the fact that there was extra flesh on my hips. Fuck God damn it. You know, it makes me mad when I think about it, it makes me mad that I wasn't of sexing all of my twenties. Okay So I didn't know if I would like get the nerve to do this, but oh God

Val:

Oh, listeners. You're in for a treat.

Kat:

Okay. So I am someone that's actively dating. There's, you know, there's different kind of dating apps are out there. One app that I really like is a queer app. It's called Lex. And so you just post an ad and people are really clever. People are good writers, I'm a good writer. I like, you know, a clever little ad. Some of the ads are like really ironic and wonderful. And some of them are like looking for a roommate. It's a really cool space. I like it, Lex, if you're looking to like, be our sponsor, you can sponsor us. I would love that. And so I am, I've discovered about myself. I'm, I'm a triple Firesign Sagittarius, sun and moon, and a Leo rising, yes. And so I'm a very sexual person. I really, really enjoy it. It's very fun to me. I've, I've had enough partners now that I'm like learning that some people are like in their head a lot in sex. What cause I did all his embodiment work before it was out there in the world having sex with people. So, you know, sometimes I feel sad about coming out so late, but then there is this whole other experience that I'm having where I'm like really ahead of the curve. And then I don't have a lot of sexual trauma as an adult because my sexual experiences have been, I've already been embodied. I already made peace with my body. I've never been performative in sex. It just doesn't occur to me. It's not how I'm wired. Okay. All right. That's all the preamble. I, I was like, oh my God, should I read this ad? I posted a long time ago. It says, want to push me up against the wall, enjoy the intense sensory pleasure of my expansive fat body against yours. Want to explore with a deeply curious, affectionate, generous creative articulate lover. Yes. It turns out. Yes, they knew they did. Okay. So I live in a fat body. I can fucking get it. I live free. I am embodied in my body. I get to be desired. I am a sexual being, all these things are true. And because I don't believe those other lies because I don't believe, you know, what culture has perpetuated at me. I don't experience scarcity and dating. Yeah. And then have connection in my life where we're mostly just kind of texting and they're a little bit far away. And it's getting kind of sexual and it's charged and we're sort of sending like, you know, sexual scenarios back and forth to one another. And I said, listen, I need you to include the size of my body we talk about sexy things. My body my very full voluptuous belly is not to be skimmed over as you go to more rockiness zones. My body is goddamn decadent. I am a motherfucking feast. You see what I'm saying? And so like, even if we're just having like sexy back and forth, just texting one another, I will not have my body be not a part of this. Yeah, yeah. People love that shit.

Val:

KA, how can I say this in a way, well, I've been very, upfront with you that as you've shared your journey, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm on my own journey. right? If can do it and she's in a larger body than mine. Right. And again, I hate that it comes

Kat:

through,

Val:

but, then I I'm passing it down to, with my friends who were in smaller bodies, as they see me in our boundaries, my best friend's wedding episode. You did a little photo shoot of me trying on like eight or nine incredible dresses. And She said to me, you seem like you think your body deserves to be well-dressed and I don't know that I have that. Right. And so. I think. You just living out your story is affecting people. That's why I said, if you want to read

Kat:

that,

Val:

that, that ad I, I, you know, I would never pressure you to do it, but I think that it would be very impactful for other people on their journey. We do our journey for us. I want to honor you in that, I guess is what I'm saying. I want to honor you in that.

Kat:

Yeah, I hear that. Thank you. You know, here's the thing. We, again, we came from this culture that you had to save everybody. Right? And I do not live in that energy anymore. I'm not saving anybody, but I recognize that people witnessing me in the world as free. There's a reverberation, there's like a ripple effect of that particular energy. I live in a very marginalized body. I did not fit well in your car, you know, right. And there are, there are a lot of things that are challenging about living in this body. But I also am fucking. Right. And so I create the space that I need to in order to like jump through the extra hoops that it requires. And, you know, I do those things. I wish I didn't have to, frankly, but I do. I'm not going to let it diminish my freedom just because that's still how the world exists. Does that make sense? That is my fucking choice. Right. And so I am not trying to save anyone. I'm just aware that I'm free and it's fucking powerful. And so yeah, there is an absolute ripple effect, you know, we were laughing about like our biofields being so strong, right. Was at the beginning of the last episode. Yeah. a lot of the big energy that we're embodying is, is we've gotten freer and freer and

Val:

Ooh. And as you were talking, I think something deeper than just trying to save people. I think that as we live it out, other people are affected and then it creates the world that we do want to live in is so, right. Because I do want to have a fear relationship with my friend, right. That we're not talking about diet culture, and that we are free to eat the decadent food when you're, when you're at an amazing restaurant or at a party, or just have this freedom. Right. So I think getting past the saving people, it's like, we're just reverberating out to create the world. that We really do want the representation. Knowing that we're doing all these things. in larger bodies.

Kat:

totally And I just, I want to like specifically talk about sex for just a minute, again, sort of circling back to this because I feel like when you're marginalized, the way you're viewed and your relationship to sex really, really changes. And again, I think that's, what's so powerful is to be a fully integrated person. Right? There's years ago I was going to this dance class that was for marginalized bodies and marginalized people. It was a wonderful, wonderful class. I really loved it. And there was one attendee who later I found out, like totally had a crush on me. And they were a disabled person. They live in a disabled body and they're part of the fat community. But also I remember one of the classes they said, Hey, I just want everyone to know that I passed up some pretty great sex to be here with you all today. And I was. Yeah. Okay. Cause I, I loved seeing someone that, again, culturally, we have been, we have been told to desexualize them, you know there's this really incredible documentary on Netflix called Crip camp. Oh my God. If you haven't seen it yet, oh my God. Please watch this. Because again, it's the same kind of thing like you and I are talking about fatness and sexuality, but this is all about like folks that live in disabled bodies. It's, it's a really similar, there's a lot of overlap in these two things. We desexualized people who are different, right? Because the idea of who can be sexual and is worthy of sexual attention. And pleasure is very fucking narrow and mainstream. That is a lie, right? So all human beings in integrating our full selves includes our sexual selves. And that even includes people who identify as like ACE or asexual, you know, that's part of their identity, so, I just want us to hold space for all of that. And like, human beings, we get to be multifaceted. We get to be all the things. And so like the reason why I wanted to spend a significant amount of our time on this particular episode, declaring loudly and with expletives that I have sex that people fucking want me,

Val:

Yes, they do. Come on. I'm your hive girl. Come on.

Kat:

That I even share the ad with you, which, you know, it feels a little vulnerable is because it's important that we recognize I get to be a whole person. You get to be a whole person, your sexuality is an incredible source of power. It really is. And like when we talked about pleasure before, there's all these different ways to experience pleasure, but I have noticed that my sexual awakening has, has created a deeper sense of embodiment and there's access to like sex magic and like powerful things. When we really start to know ourselves as a sexual being, it's a really big and beautiful part of our healing of our integration of being fully embodied and being fully

Val:

Sure I used to think that Marvin Gaye song was really silly I was a kid. I mean, I was a kid

Kat:

Literally two days ago someone sent me that song. We were like messaging back and forth and they literally sent me that song.

Val:

dear listeners, if You know sometime in the future you see cat max sexual healer. You heard it here first. Oh my gosh. Oh, I love this. That's so good I mean, I think we've been talking about our three questions. Well, we've been learning. What's moving

Kat:

It's so good. Val, thank you for having these conversations with me. I'm so proud of our

Val:

Thank you, Kat. thanks for being willing to share

Kat:

I, I was pretty bold. Vulnerability hangover, real bad.

Val:

I love it. I love watching you do it. And then the next day you're like,

Kat:

oh shit. I know. I love when I talk about sex. So freely, it makes me kind of emboldened, especially when you stop making eye contact, I'm like, ah, but then like, yeah, the next day I'd be like, I have to stand on my covers today.

Val:

And we're talking about sex. I told you we could.

Kat:

Listeners, she just worked really hard to hold eye contact with me

Val:

that

Kat:

she like held my gaze and she was like, we're talking about sex.

Val:

look, look, I told you I was still on the journey.

Kat:

I love

Val:

I love it. too. And you're a part of my journey. Ah, I hope listeners that you laughed with us. and That you're on your journey of freedom too. Let's all. Get free. Yay. I love you.

Kat:

I love you by

Val:

Bye

People on this episode

Head Shot

Valerie DiLuggo

Host
Head Shot

Kat Max

Co-host