3 Questions with Kat & Val

Grief is a Motherf*cker

• Season 1 • Episode 13

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. Oh, yeah.

Kat:

I about,

Val:

I thought that we were going to start this episode. Just kind of calm and somber because we have a somber topic. It's a heavy topic,

Kat:

but we're going to lighten it up.

Val:

You just asked me what? what did you just

Kat:

Well, I was looking at my notes and I just wrote the word dads and it's underlined. And I was like, why didn't I write dads

Val:

and I had to remind you, cause we have dead dads. That's why you wrote that because we have dead dads. Welcome to the grief episode motherfuckers you got so grief. Let's just

Kat:

gets better. It gets better.

Val:

This is just the AdRoll books. Oh my gosh.

Kat:

Val, I love you so

Val:

I love you.

Kat:

Everybody. Val is the most wonderful, bright red lips today. It just is making me

Val:

It's because I have my Parisian white and black striped shirt on, so

Kat:

took a picture. I'm going to put it on the Instagram.

Val:

yay. I have a good hair day. too.

Kat:

Yeah. You look gorgeous.

Val:

And your hair is. growing in and you've dyed it and it looks fabulous. I love it. I do. I love, I love that you dyed it

Kat:

yeah, it looks better than I do.

Val:

So today we thought we would talk about grief and I thought, I'd say a few things in the beginning here. Just that I think like all things we, we deal with these topics, with vulnerability. We can get deep

Kat:

you. Of course we can.

Val:

There might be some tears. I've been crying. recently a lot about stuff. Yeah. I freaked out my husband. the other day.

Kat:

Good. He needs to get rattled once in awhile.

Val:

but he's better. Remember in former episodes. I said, he's doing just enough. He was actually doing even a little more than just enough, but I've trained him that Like if I cry it's okay. Like it's it's all right. It's just tears.

Kat:

have to train everybody that too. I do. I cry a lot.

Val:

So he said, he said, it's okay. if you want to cry baby cry. We're going to treat these topics with irreverent humor,

Kat:

have to, I think that's the main coping mechanism

Val:

I do.

Kat:

Yeah. Because you have to anchor onto something, otherwise the grief and despair can swallow you up, but we don't want that.

Val:

I think it's a way to switch your brain into, you know, we talk about negative and positive thinking and how to retrain your brain, to start thinking more positively. I think you could retrain your brain to see some more of the humor in life. And Again, it's kind of like that narrative therapy, we get to create our own stories, and the meaning that we make out of things. So I just find that it feels so much better in my body. I actually was laughing with my 93 year old grandmother. about sort of. hi-jinks that might, my youngest brother's getting into and kind of how he decides to live his life. And she's just Like, you know, we're laughing about it. It's, it's a serious thing, but it's better than crying that gene went through her down the family tree. We're going to use a Reverend humor and I'm gonna reference one, a grief expert, and I was just on her website and I saw a little video about research about, humor in, in grief. So

Kat:

I read it lots of places too. Like we're not just making it, we don't make this shit up. People were well read.

Val:

And so, we thought it was a good time to talk about grief for many reasons, personal and also collectively. right. And we'd like these episodes to kind of be evergreen or timeless. If you're listening to this in the future, we're not going to talk a lot about the current events. I think We're just acknowledging. But if you're listening to this in the future, the context in which we're talking about our collective grieve, there's been an uptick in mass shootings. There's some Supreme court decisions that are possibly taking away. rights. We're still in like this post COVID.

Kat:

Hm, but not post it's. Yeah.

Val:

it's still

Kat:

It's still here and people are fatigued and exhausted and

Val:

And then there's a war. in Russia and Ukraine, And that's devastating

Kat:

other parts of the world too.

Val:

And there's so many other things that, you know, listen, there's a, V like something, I'm sure that's more at the center of your experience. that We could add to this. list, But that's the context in which we're sort of talking about. It's a dark time,

Kat:

It is. And that's, what's so sort of fascinating about grief is that we live in a culture that we don't have good outlets for it. Like our culture really wants us to deny and repress it all. And so then if you have any like, personal grief in the midst of this, like collective sort of soup of trauma and grief and loss, and then, you know, again, like reoccurring trauma too, right?

Val:

The

Kat:

The, mash, this is reoccurring, so this is this whole other thing that many of us don't have skills yet to cope with really. And so when then you have something personal in your life too, on top of that. And so we just thought we're going to like, do our best to share some of our helpful ideas.

Val:

Yeah. And this is a part of how we're dealing with our grief Is making art

Kat:

isn't it. It's self-expression for sure.

Val:

And so much catharsis in

Kat:

And community together, and

Val:

And I hope our laughter I did have one listener say, can you just make a really long laugh, track? Oh, okay. pick a ball update. There's a, there's an older gentleman. Oh Actually. The first day I met him, he was laughing and then someone's like, oh, he just lost his wife The other day, I was like, oh shit but he has like such a unique laugh and cause I also was like teased about my love by adults. By pastors. Yeah.

Kat:

stupid

Val:

I don't know

Kat:

So awful.

Val:

Who makes fun of a child Who's laughing Yeah. They said, Oh, I thought you grew out of

Kat:

of that. Shut up. Oh, I hate

Val:

Yeah,

Kat:

who they are.

Val:

they're dead too. We're talking a lot about today, this just lovely pickleball gentlemen, they were like, oh, have you, Valerie, have you met so-and-so? And I'm like, oh yeah, I know. I know. So-and-so I'm like we're in the amazing laugh club. together. I said you didn't know that. So they all laughed. And I thought that was hilarious. I feel like you should have just laughed a little

Kat:

bit more.

Val:

you just made that up in my head.

Kat:

I was waiting for them to be like more, like he said something next. I didn't know that the story was over.

Val:

No, that was the genius. I was like, should I know him?

Kat:

We're an amazing lab club. Okay. I'm sorry.

Val:

That's all right. I just want it to be honest, just get that out. I didn't want to hold that grudge against you. Anyway, everybody laughed. And I was like, yeah, you didn't see his membership card. And then I just felt good about it. Cause I made everyone laugh. Yes. Thank you.

Kat:

All right. I have to confess

Val:

something. Oh boy.

Kat:

Yeah. Like in the midst of this fucking soup of collective grief guests. Well, you already know

Val:

Oh, I know I'll play along for the sake of our listeners though. What has happened, cat?

Kat:

I experienced a breakup that really broke my fucking heart. Yeah. And so then I was like, this is the worst. I hate it so much. Oh, but you know what? I have a fucking podcast and you know what else? I'm going to Taylor swift all over you mother fuckers. And so yeah, you want to date me? You better be prepared.'cause I have a God damn fucking platform with thousands of downloads.

Val:

yes. told the pickup ballers, they all want to listen to the podcast. I'm like, I'm not sure guys, if this is your cup of tea, but I was like, look, You might be in it, if you've been said something really funny or really rude. Okay. you might be in it. So watch out, watch how you treat me folks.

Kat:

everybody,

Val:

watch out.

Kat:

you all watch yourselves. Oh my Yes.

Val:

Yes. Dear friend, you have been going through A lot of heartache in the midst of this, in the midst of also some really wonderful things like our podcasts, launching. I mean,

Kat:

so what we decided is we're going to talk about grief today and it was going to be a little bit more like some overview of how to cope with grief. And then next week I'm gonna like, watch out,

Val:

set your DVRs.

Kat:

This is a fucking teaser.

Val:

Yes. Good job. I'm I'm excited for that episode. Oh yeah. I

Kat:

have some real insights about like how to

Val:

do

Kat:

with a breakup. You are very wise, Val. I mean, people who want some support in their relationship should definitely seek you out.

Val:

I mean, I've been on fire. This, week. I just want to say, I

Kat:

your clients are so

Val:

I feel like therapists don't get a chance to like show out and be like, oh, Maybe they do. Maybe I'm just not doing it. But yeah, it was like, Ooh, I told One client. You need to have a breakup ritual. when you're out there dating, and she was like, oh yeah. I felt that too. You need to do something. And we're going to talk about rituals to how powerful they can be We've done this full swing back and forth. from like, Oh, rituals are empty and we don't need them to like they help us shift. and move things.

Kat:

And if it's somehow personal, you're like, that's the whole thing of like, if it feels resonant, see, this is why you got to be in touch with your fucking body. Is it resonant with you? Then it will be meaningful if it's just this thing that people are doing over there. Does it mean anything to you? Of course it's

Val:

Right. Oh yes. There's little Pearl of

Kat:

fucking engaged in your own goddamn healing, your own goddamn life.

Val:

Okay. So can we just talk about grief? For a minute, what it is and what it isn't

Kat:

let's get into it.

Val:

I love just watching sort of our evolution as a society. and What what comes into like our social discourse? When I started doing therapy about 10 years ago, clients had never heard the word self-care I had to explain that isn't, that, that was just under 10 years. ago. So the things that we're talking about and, I feel like what doctors feel like with Webb and D you know, I have clients coming and saying like, well, you know, I Googled all this and like, this is what I found, but what do you think?

Kat:

Yeah,

Val:

so I think we are getting a bit better at understanding what grief is, when Kobe Bryant died, right. The basketball player People were asking how can I feel so deeply, over somebody that I never met. Right. But I think that we know what grief is when it's a loss of a parent or a child or a loved one. But then all the other griefs, I don't think that we're really that great at spotting. but they're affecting us.

Kat:

are. Yeah. Well, okay. And so I just want to say too, it's capitalism's fault, stupid fucking white supremacy, colonialism, bullshit. You know, the idea that you need to like go to work and put most of your humanity away so that you can be productive for this other entity. Right. It's asked all of us over and over and over again to separate ourselves from our emotional

Val:

It does create dissonance doesn't it. Like I have to show up and do this. Like, what does this even mean, job? And put all my humanity aside to produce.

Kat:

We all have grown up in this environment. And so it's not, that surprising that it's difficult for most of us to engage with grief, you know? And then you were talking about Val, I really appreciate that. You've said this. It has been so helpful to me. You said that. Dissonance creates

Val:

trauma.

Kat:

And so that's what's happening is that.

Val:

you know,

Kat:

I even think about like when it was time to send the kids back to school, right? Like people really wanted my kid to be at school every single day. And my kid has ADHD and the school is a little bit chaotic because of how many times teachers are out and admins are out because of COVID and so there's a lot of inconsistency and I know that everyone's doing their best, but my kid just has their own set of unique needs. And then those needs were not able to be fostered enough. So my

Val:

because we were in a pandemic

Kat:

know, so I can use to stay home and reset and I'm like, that's okay with me. I don't care that much about like their academic success as a fourth grader, when there are some big picture things that we don't even know how this impacts all of us. Right. But then like people that are in it, they're like attendance is only 91%. I was thinking about roofing. I was like, ah, that's a fucking a get the fuck. Like my job is to make sure my kid is emotionally. Well, you know, not just like tell them they have to. Disappear part of themselves to sit there, button a chair and pay attention.

Val:

Right.

Kat:

Don't try to convince me that I should believe that your particular story when I'm the one that lives with my child, you know what I mean? And I'm like, that creates dissonance. but there's enough of them that felt a little gas lady. Honestly. Listen, people we're still in this shit. What kind of hoops? Did you jump through to get to the conclusion that we have to soldier on? I don't know. They're not nearly as I'm judging their body as I am when the plug is,

Val:

Well, and then we also have just have to survive. Right? And capitalism is like, you just, you have to work. And I've actually had a few clients and friends recently talk about how their bosses So readily dismissed their grief because it wasn't a spouse or something, You know, It's interesting. You talk about dissonance, like walking through the world, even just when we've called out how white supremacy, affects us all, but obviously more for more marginalized groups and just the dissonance of like a friend was telling me, I'm trying my best. And yet there's this ideal of the white male, pattern that you have to fit in there was such a dissonance of well, I'm trying my best, but it feels like the target. I can never meet it because I'm not that. right. Or even when my dad died it was about. Hm, four months before nine 11. And My dad died very suddenly. I was about 25. He was very young. And I remember sitting in my living room watching the news about nine 11 but I was like, yeah, now, you know how I

Kat:

feel

Val:

And obviously I was devastated about nine 11, too. Right. But I remember sitting there just in my grief, in my devastation. And then it was like the whole world was devastated. The whole world caught up to where I was. and There was less dissonance. I wasn't the only one grieving. And the whole world was grieving along with me.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

We don't realize that grief, takes energy

Kat:

so much

Val:

energy. so much energy, Right. And so we need to make shifts and changes and have self-compassion. And I have a friend who was trying to take care of himself after multiple friends died and work is just like, I don't get it. I don't get it. They're your friends. which, Which is just terribly inhumane. But he's trying to take care of himself in that knowing he needs more time off. So I think one, we want to just remind everyone. If you're grieving, if your heart is heavy to take some time. And really take care of yourself in those times,

Kat:

what was the other thing you talked about in one of our other episodes the ability to sit in the discomfort. You had a cool phrase for that what's that called?

Val:

Distress tolerance.

Kat:

So, so I think that might be a muscle that we, can learn to grow in. So when you're in grief or you're experiencing any kind of pain say the phrase again.

Val:

distress tolerance.

Kat:

It there's this thing that when we're in it, it feels like this is forever. Cause it's so

Val:

intense.

Kat:

But when you realize, oh, I've lived through some shit and actually this is not forever, you know? I loved the words, distress tolerance, for some reason, they felt like something I could just grab on to in that moment so it doesn't mean like white knuckling, it just stress tolerance. It means you're feeling your feelings and you're like, I can still survive and this is not going to be forever. I can endure this, this I'm feeling it. And it is absolutely uncomfortable. It really does hurt, but also. I'm still here. I'm okay. And this is not going to be forever. And those kinds of things, when you're really in it, just remembering that and that offering yourself as much kindness and softness and gentleness as you can, you know?

Val:

Yeah. And the way I introduce it to clients, I say, it's a reminder it is a muscle we have the ability to tolerate distress. Emotions are like waves. and They, ebb and they flow and they don't stay as intense as the peak. How do you tolerate. Distract sooth. Co-regulate we've talked about that before. There are so many ways and tools that we have at our disposal to really ride those waves. of grief.

Kat:

And I remember I was 29 when my dad died. He also died suddenly. And the intensity of the waves and that was my first experience with that kind of grief. And so I remember like being out in public with I was dating my husband back then and we were at some event and some of his family was meeting them for the first time. And I had to like ask to leave early, We were just like at this event. And I just, Crumbled. And it was so painfully uncomfortable to have that experience out in public. And then, it was really fortunate that he was like, yeah, let's go, that's fine. it did eventually start to, be something that I could manage, but my life changed in that those grieving months, you know? And then over, the years, it's gotten a lot less intense obviously. So one of the things I appreciated that you said was that all coping mechanisms are on the table when we're experiencing grief. Do you want to say more about

Val:

Well, sure. Can I say before that can I say grief is

Kat:

wild. Oh yeah. Yeah. Unpredictable

Val:

It makes us do a wild. day.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

And there's some great tools out there, like the stages of grief. Right, You've probably heard of that Kubler-Ross started with the five stages of grief. We think oh, their stages, they come one after another but actually they're wild. It's going back and forth. up and down, They don't. And I

Kat:

ping pong

Val:

ping-pong, I think it's helpful to go like, oh, okay. I'm in my anger. I'm you know, in a

Kat:

depression, I can relate to that. Yeah, for sure.

Val:

So they kind of go back and forth and you think okay, I'm good. And then another

Kat:

lady.

Val:

right? I always talk about healing and growth and, realizations come

Kat:

in layers

Val:

So I think I would love to see us realize that grief is not. Just something to be gone through as quickly as possible. Okay, let's see what level of grief. This is like if you sprained your ankle? Oh, okay. this is a mild sprain. So it should be you know, right. That grief actually can stay with us our whole life. And I think that that can feel scary, but I think that if we realize that it will dissipate in its severity, but we carry around this loss. For the rest of our lives. And that's okay.

Kat:

is. And you, sort of, you accommodate it, it becomes integrated and, you also can kind of be friended. It's interesting. We think of negative emotions as like something to be avoided at all costs because we don't know how to deal with them honestly. But what I have noticed is that when we can befriend those emotions they teach us profound things and, they're like companions that like are not frivolous. Does that make sense? They like, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it makes me feel more grounded to know that I've lived through the loss of a parent at a young age, you know? When I'm interacting with other humans that are experiencing grief and loss, I can tap right into that. I know what that feels like. And then I get to hold space with someone else. And so it makes me closer to the humans in my life, you

Val:

Right. And loss is just a part of life. I think we can border on the sort of toxic positivity or the oh, everything happens for a reason. or, Oh, there must have been a

Kat:

plan because all that

Val:

Right, Right, I just think that yes, we can see how grief has shaped us and even the positive. Like, you saying that we can relate to people it's almost like a complexity in the depth It gives your

Kat:

life. It does.

Val:

But I guess we're saying that at the same time, it's not the toxic positivity of like, oh, I'm so glad this happened because now I can empathize with people. No, It's that, Hey, this terrible thing happened. I have no control over that. And also because we've done our healing work, Yeah. Look at the depth, Look at What I've learned

Kat:

from it. Yeah. it's not black and white. It's both. And and that's, where the toxic positivity gets in as they're trying to push you all the way over into one. Life is so fucking nuanced. it's all of it all mixed together at once. Yeah. I know that big grief in my life has also been a catalyst for change for me. So like my body, when I was diagnosed with a chronic illness and ended up being a huge catalyst for a lot of spiritual, like awakening experiences. And then even when my dad died, the timing of it was really interesting, but that is what really began my deconstruction. Yeah there was something about people were saying fucking platitudes to me, you know, that God knows. And then my dad, wasn't the only one to die. There was two other paternal sort of figures in my life that also died in that quick succession. I was angry and anger has been something difficult for me to hold onto my whole life. I think, as a coping mechanism, decided to like be pleasing as opposed to like really hold any of the anger that, you know there's plenty for me to have been angry about. But that was the first time in my life. I was really angry. I was forced to confront a lot of dissonance

Val:

Well sure. because religion is supposed to Be there for us in those moments.

Kat:

But also the grief was so profound that it shook everything in me. And so it shook me

Val:

up.

Kat:

Yeah. And so If you zoom out, you can be like, oh, my dad died. And so then I deconstruct from Christianity. Isn't that great. But no, that's exactly what it felt like, but it was like my world shattered and I had to find out how to rebuild it. Right. You and I were talking about that too. Like, there's this, what the fuck do I do now? Right. And so what was happening is that I had this intense pain of loss that I wasn't expecting. And then also suddenly this worldview doesn't resonate like it did before. Then I had to fucking deal with that too. And then in my story ended up being the early part of my marriage. And I was like, oh fuck. I was really grateful to have my then husband, because, in a lot of ways, he was such a gift through that, through that grief. But what happened was with the deconstruction is that I became aware of like, oh, I have to somehow stay at Christian. So to help me with my angry grief, I found a Christian therapist who was a real therapist and not just someone was going to give me platitudes. And they were the ones that really helped with the deconstruction, because I was expressing all this dissonance and they're like, you know, lots of Christian people don't take the Bible literally. And I was like,

Val:

what? yes.

Kat:

So at that season of my life, I was committed to like, I need to stay a Christian cause I want to be married to this man. But yeah. So grief it just is right. It's going to be part of it. All right. We can sit with it and be with it and then it, can have beauty is what I'm trying

Val:

to say.

Kat:

Like, and again, it's not that I'm being overly positive. It's that in everything we experience in life, it can be transmuted into something fucking.

Val:

radiant. I have to admit, and I think this is, what our podcast

Kat:

is about.

Val:

I don't feel that way about the things that I have

Kat:

went through.

Val:

at all. I just don't like my dad dying. Nope. Just It's just a tragedy. I mean, like, right. It's just It's a tragedy. It was a health tragedy. That had a real effect on a lot of people. I think some of the beautiful things that came of it was I still have people. And I think one of our long-term listeners friend from, high school, they'll still talk about my dad was one of the best men they ever knew. Actually in his hospital room, I remember. The young men coming in, you know, he helped me so much and he was there for me. The legacy, or we've talked about clean pain and dirty pain. Like, I didn't have trauma with my dad. I was a daddy's girl. We had a great

Kat:

room.

Val:

There's a lot of sadness that he never met Rafiq. He never Met my brother's wife, you know, never met his grandkids. The grief that my mom still lives with the way it affected my younger brother and my grandmother. And, and I don't know, I guess I've just contrasting your experience with mine, right? So to have the. full Spectrum of experiences, but and I don't feel like it did anything. No great awakenings, no, nothing. I mean, that was 25, again, nine 11 happened. I did have a premonition. that I remember we talked about these, knowings. I had, I say it in the other episode, I was actually at a funeral. Well, my dad was probably having a stroke I was doing my pastoral duties. It was for a young person. Their grandmother had died and they wanted me to come support them. And I was sitting there looking at the picture of the woman, living into her old age. And I remember thinking That's not going to be my dad Wow. I think the exact same time. He was probably. dying. And so of course we had no cell phones then, And so I got home when there was a message. on the answering machine. And So again, we talked about how these little knowings maybe prepare us. I was at peace with even that knowing cause he had some health problems, but it was still a very sudden thing. So I'm grateful for that. And you know, that's the first time, that I went on antidepressants the depth of the grief and I don't know at that young age, like if I even was able to go to the depths of it and to be very honest with you for being like a very process oriented person, I feel like one of the ways that I, I think I've dealt with the profound grief. is I'm. Yeah. He's gone. And I don't, I don't know if it's not my personality, I have such great like childhood memories and stories, and get my humor from him, I married, like a Brazilian version of my dad. My mom was the first one to point that out. I have cousins who, on the anniversary of their father's death, like post this big Facebook you know, dad, I miss you so much. I don't know if I don't do it because it's not my personality or if it would hurt too much, or if it feels cheesy, to me or it's too sophisticated. for that. And I like to tell stories about him, but yeah, it's sometimes I've wondered about that. Like have I, and I have I also cheated myself of something by just

Kat:

going to be in like,

Val:

yep. He's gone. I'm from a family that doesn't talk about emotions too, much, that's why this all feels very freeing to me. that we Just don't talk

Kat:

about things.

Val:

And so maybe that was a little bit part of it, or maybe it was my grease. I thought I would be swallowed up by losing this man you know, that I love so much. So early. So I don't know, even the infertility, it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's given me anything except for, I've. I think like that.

Kat:

alchemy,

Val:

you turn it into like, love the life you have. I want to make sure we talk about everyday

Kat:

grief.

Val:

Can we really recognize the everyday grief and go, oh, I need to grieve that. It's just recognizing it, allowing it to pass through and calling it as such. Like I, When I started crying yesterday, the coffee shop, it was because I saw this older lady and I love the older ladies of Northern California because they've done some

Kat:

shit.

Val:

They've like hiked Mount Kilimanjaro. You could be sitting next to someone in a coffee shop. And then I think I heard this lady say, well, what I really want to do is go to Antarctica. in the winter, which Maybe suggests that she's been in. summer or spring. And how, I don't know. She was saying there was condoms everywhere. like in like the. I want to say. Space station. but that's not the right word. There's nothing else to do. there. I guess it's like, they give you a pregnancy test If you're going to be there. over the winter. Cause they can't get you out of There but there's this lady and she's like one of those cyclists with like the little mirror. attached to her Elvis, you know, those, And I was like, dang, I want to have this vitality into my golden years. But my body has felt like in his age since I've been 20 years old since I've been diagnosed. And just that grief for like, how am I going to keep playing pickleball when it just, I could barely walk this morning? after playing yesterday. Right. And when my emotions are on the top, I just cry about it, I'm grieving something and I have to be careful. Right? I talk about anticipatory anxiety and this is anticipatory grief. when We're trying to predict the future and we're grieving over something that may or may not

Kat:

happen.

Val:

Even the last couple of days, like we had friends here. And I was like, okay, I think I have to go home and rest, this shopping is fun, but I think I'm done And just that loss of ability. We learned during COVID, I think it got into the social Discourse about grieving things that didn't happen. grieving your graduation, that didn't happen. grieving, You know, all the baby showers and and family dinners that we missed out. And that It's okay. To grieve things that never happened. We got to grieve those things, people, it's real

Kat:

well, we have to create space to do it too. And then like acknowledge it because these things will pass through our body. Right. Well, feel a thing. And then in the moment where you have that little like, welling of oh my God, am I going to cry right now? Right. do you like take a beat and say, wow, well what's showing up for me right now. And the only way to do that is to actually create some space in our life. Yeah. And again, we're pushing against really loud messages from the culture we live in because our culture. It's very toxic and broken, especially around these, these, the idea of living embodied is, is very contrary to what we've been indoctrinated with in capitalist society. And so, whatever our grief is. I just want us to acknowledge, it literally is everywhere, right. So, if we could just be like, Hey, cool listeners, could you maybe take more naps,

Val:

Could you take those mental health days? when you need them?

Kat:

Yeah. And like, would you maybe when you're interacting with your kids, have them have stillness, could we learn it for ourselves and then model it for other people? Could we interact with the humans that are alive and be like, oh, What I hear you saying is, is that there's some grief there and it's okay to sit with that,

Val:

And if you're a manager at a company, Do your fucking best to validate acknowledge and give your employees space for that. Don't make it harder.

Kat:

You do that by doing it for yourself first. That's the

Val:

you won't do it for other people if you're not doing it

Kat:

for, you know, because, we talk about there's all these different coping mechanisms that we use. And so our culture has taught us that coping mechanism of work harder at work will

Val:

save you

Kat:

work as the only thing that will see you through this. Right. That's a quote from sleepless in

Val:

Seattle,

Kat:

by the way. And

Val:

also say, can we acknowledge that, like you were talking about grief being all around us, that the more marginalized identities that we hold, the more that grief is around all the time. Whether their Racial identities and the grief of fuck this, the system is rigged against, me everywhere I go. Or, you know, I'm always judged by the color of my skin. Fuck. Right. That is a, that is a grief Right, right. Living in or having any other kind of marginalized identity there's grief all the time. and How are we acknowledging and, and letting it pass through us instead of getting sort of bottled up so looping back around to what you asked before. Grief grief does it's wild. It's wild. It makes us do weird things. I actually didn't. Start using the past tense of my father's death for a while. And at the same time I was dating someone and he broke up with me, like right after my dad I'm grateful, but a little bit of a Dick move, but I'm also grateful, He heard me call him my boyfriend, or I didn't even know I did it, but I was still using it in the present

Kat:

tense. Yeah.

Val:

And so he was like, why'd you say that? Like, we're broken up. Fuck you. Fuck you. But also I was doing the same thing with my dad. I was like, oh yeah, my dad, he does blah, blah, blah, blah,

Kat:

blah.

Val:

My body's didn't want to change. my language to the past tense yet.

Kat:

Yeah. Cause God, it's, it's huge. It's a major shift. It takes our whole selves a while to catch up to what our present reality is. Sometimes

Val:

I'm not going to get to the coping mechanisms because I'm going to go on another side, but I think we have to mention complicated grief, where there's, many things happening at once. Right. And recognizing why am I having such a hard time? Why is this feeling so hard? Well, it's that complicated grief. There's many griefs going on at once. Right. Rafiq and I were just talking about he needs to do some more traveling and I'm like, look, I think that I had, it was complicated grief with the infertility that we experienced also at the same time, leaving our church and not feeling like a divorce, and losing a lot of. friendships. And then him being gone and us having difficulty. in our relationship. So it was all mixed together. Cause I could have blamed it all on him. Fuck you. You're ruining our marriage, I could have blamed it all on, the infertility I could have blamed it all in the church. And honestly it was a mixture of all things. And now that I have found some healing from that and processed a lot of the grief around the infertility. It doesn't feel torturous anymore. when you leave. Cause I would ask myself, I was not being very kind to myself, are you that weak? that you can't be by yourself Right? Cause I was brought up you need to be strong But it was the trauma of all these other things on top of it. So now his traveling is just, I want him to be around. and doesn't feel torturous anymore. cause I've Healed other aspects. of Grief and pain. Does That make

Kat:

sense. Yeah, it really does.

Val:

So should I, so should I just finally talk about coping mechanisms

Kat:

well, I think we should do it right after the break. We're going to go for a break and then some coping mechanisms, people, we have some things to tell you that might actually be helpful.

Val:

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Val:

Okay. We're back.

Kat:

Hi,

Val:

So So in the middle of sometimes I get like these, great downloads in the middle of my rantings during therapy. I tell glides, okay. I'm getting on my soapbox. I want to, I want to tell

Kat:

you something. I want to hear it. I want

Val:

to hear it. was like our culture. We love a bootstrap and a white

Kat:

Knight.

Val:

We love a bootstrap and a white knuckle. telling Everyone just pull yourself up by the bootstrap. Or you can make it just go a little harder. you know? And so I'm like, we love a bootstrap in a white knuckle, but we demonize the crutch.

Kat:

Yeah, we do.

Val:

And what fuckers, demonize a crutch, which actually just helps you walk. It's a beautiful object. Thank you so much, crutch. You're You're enabling me to walk when I've had an illness or I've twisted an ankle. Cause I have clients say like, well, I don't want it to be a crutch. Well, I don't want this to be a crutch. Crutches help you walk people.

Kat:

Use them, find them anything. That's a crutch. Get some fucking crutches. People,

Val:

crutches are amazing. When did crutches become evil and morally wrong to use a

Kat:

of ableism fucking

Val:

Oh, can you describe ableism for anyone who hasn't heard

Kat:

yet? Yeah. So ableism is just one of those things where you kind of vilify someone who is disabled, right? So like the ideal that, you know, we're constantly projected is, this, able-bodied can do all these things. And so when you live in a body that doesn't do those things, you become

Val:

marginalized.

Kat:

And so yeah, the idea that. Well, the goal should be for everyone to be perfectly able-bodied. And so that we, like we push aside people, you know what, just real quick, the whole COVID thing. Like you know, I, I spent some time in, in disabled circles, right? Like I,

Val:

I tech

Kat:

am disabled and I have limited mobility. And so I spend time in these groups and so P these would be people who are immunocompromised and things like that. And so this group of people is like, Hey, fuckers COVID is not over. I get that. We all have fucking fatigue with this shit, but seriously, you are saying that it's okay if I die. Right because we don't value someone's life. But like a disabled person that we have systematically marginalized, or like, yeah, you could just die. Right. That's not cool. That's bad. So that's what Abel ism is. So like, it's just a bias that we

Val:

right. So, right. We have a bias that if you need a crutch, then you are weak

Kat:

yeah. And somehow less than a dehumanize you. So your social currency is diminished. We're always doing that work.

Val:

We are, we are.

Kat:

And we're not trying to shame anyone like we're indoctrinated. Right. So, but when you become aware of it, you're just like,

Val:

Shining

Kat:

like, yeah, notice it. And then be like, Hey, maybe I will take an examine that at some point after my seven naps, because of all the fucking grief or

Val:

when we know better, we do better. Thank you, Maya Angelou. I love that. So, any, yeah. you said any sort of coping mechanism is on the table. I also, yes. Thank you. Thank you. somewhat client was telling me about like, I just want to stick my head in the sand and they were going through a lot. and I'm like, Look, sometimes I don't know if I surprised them, I give them permission for whatever, right? Sometimes you just have to stick your head in the sand for a while. And that's okay. And then I, it just pops up. Look. Astra, just do it all the time. Sticking their head. in the sand. Are they extinct? No, they're surviving. they did not go the way of the Dodo bird. Putting your head in the sand for a little while. Is that going to make you extinct?

Kat:

a legit Colby mechanism. People find some fucking sad.

Val:

Do you like the answer? Just do, put your head in the stand for a little while and then shake it off, shake it off and find something else that maybe might be more helpful in the moment.

Kat:

Right? Okay. This is why we got to stay in touch with our

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

Don't live so much in your fucking brains. Our brains are not reliable for coping with grief, our brains do weird shit. So you got to stay in your body and then you say high body. I would like to be gentle with you. I know we're going through a lot. Like what's the next thing that we need. And then just listen,

Val:

so clients, I help them make lists for self-care and I talk about self care self, nurturing, and self-soothing, And I have them make a list of everything that they turn to when they want to feel better. And I think That freaks out some people

Kat:

like, oh,

Val:

am I going to tell you what I do when I just want to soothe myself? Right. Like, right. And I said, we're not going to moralize. Any of them, They're not going to be good or bad. We're going to learn how to check into our body each day and realize, you know, when. is Laying in bed, bingeing, your favorite show, the best thing for you. in that moment. And when will that not feel great? Right. Like maybe you've got a paper that's due or whatever, you know, sometimes. Going out for a walk feels amazing. and Sometimes it won't So You can't just have a list and be in your head about it. You have to check in because you will feel the best

Kat:

when and what works today. Won't work tomorrow and that's okay. That's again, like when you ride out the waves of grief and, and looking at it as waves is really, really helpful because you need to, you need to be like the surfer, right? You gotta be the surf pro surfer on the surfboard. And what they're doing is they're constantly in relation to the wave. They're moving their body. They're adjusting, they're making adjustments as we go. And that's why our bodies are so key here. Our brains want a fucking list to check it off. And you know, our brains are extremely susceptible to all of the messaging we have from our culture. And again, I'm not trying to shame our brains. They're, they're doing their job. They're trying to keep us safe. But our bodies, our bodies are what know how to heal.

Val:

Yes. And as a part of that, as party coping mechanisms, we've talked about a lot of things

Kat:

already.

Val:

Also rituals, Can we get a

Kat:

circle.

Val:

to that? I ask clients when there's been a big thing that's going on. Is there a ritual that you can do that might help move or shift something commemorate? Memorialize is there, you know, a lot of like the burning something like that, we'll get to that next. Week's ever burn baby burn. Do we need to burn some shit? We almost burned some shit that was leftover from the

Kat:

relationship

Val:

you know? Or is there something that will help you

Kat:

to move up. Yeah. but sometimes we're in so much pain, we're just grasping for whatever. And I think we're in that stage, it's better to just be still and try to sooth. Right. And then sometimes the, the energy is too intense. And so you're like, okay, stillness is making me feel worse. And so you're like, okay, well I'm going to move my body.

Val:

What, feels

Kat:

good? What kind of movement feels good? And then, once you're like through that intense crest of the wave, you can settle into well, what is going to pull me out of the dark sadness. And so you gather these lists. I like that you have everyone write these lists. And would you say the three different things can cause they're all a little different aren't they

Val:

Self-soothing So how do you feel better? Self-nurturing what things make you feel alive when Nurture. your soul curious And then self care, like what are the things, you know, like I talked about the plant stick before. right? What are those three things? And it's so funny, minor, like why. Laughter and protein the things that keep me going, right. water. Laughter protein so I asked people to, To make the list. One thing that they they'd been thinking about that might be good. Let me try it. And one thing that they know is not good. Before we go, I also want to talk about, Reorganization.

Kat:

I just underlined that. I was like, let's get to

Val:

Let's get to that. Cause you really liked that when I told you about it. So we're going to link her website, Jill Johnson, young. is a therapist who really focuses on grief. I think She has a book or a podcast called the rebellious widow or something like that. I know I liked that it talks a lot about grief. And I took one of her trainings and she talked about people who were able to continue to live a full life after experiencing loss, what they did was they were able to reorganize their life after the loss. So reorganization I think is such a great phrase

Kat:

Concept. So, so grief can alter us,

Val:

like it

Kat:

us. And then we can, part of the healing process is making peace with the alteration. And then that includes, like, I thought my life was going to look like this. I thought it was going to include my dad. I thought it was going to include children in my life. And my dad, no, my children. Right. And so like the, the grief that alters us, it alters our reality and it alters who we are. Right. And then the process of making peace with that, I think can be really profound. And then, you've got to decide that I'm still alive. So what the fuck I'm going to do? Am I going to curl up and die or I'm going to like still find a way to live. That is actually incredibly

Val:

difficult. It's incredibly difficult. And I think it can be incredibly powering if you can get,

Kat:

yeah. Well, that's the thing my perspective on like terrible things happen. We don't want them to happen and it's not trying to like turn everything rosy, but like, I do love who I am today and I did experience all of that fucking shit. Right. I don't know who I would have been if I didn't experience that, but I love who I am today. And I accept myself for him today in the, all of the alterations and all of the colors and all of the, the shape of who I am. Right. Like I love me. And so every bit of it gets redeemed because I fucking love myself. And I think that's, that's what I was trying to

Val:

say earlier,

Kat:

know, like, yeah. I w when great, if I didn't have all that fucking trauma, right. I love me and I have been altered and I've come back

Val:

swinging,

Kat:

you know, like sure. I get knocked down, but I get up again.

Val:

I can knock down, but I get up again. Okay. I think I'm feeling what you're saying. It's kind of just been integrated. into who you are and therefore you love it.

Kat:

I love

Val:

like, you all love

Kat:

Yeah. And I've made peace and I've accepted these truths and I, I'm not rejecting any part of me, even the traumatized part. I'm not

Val:

rejecting it. and the loss,

Kat:

Yeah. And I've had to re I've had to reorganize my life so many fucking times and I, you know, there's this meme about I don't want to be resilient and I understand the point of that. I didn't want to have to be resilient, but man, it's a fucking skill. I am very resilient, you know, and I still feel all my fucking feelings. It's weird because I've healed enough to feel all my feelings and God damn motherfucker. It's a lot.

Val:

It is a lot. And it can also move us into a space of agency and power. Right. If we can do it. Then we have the agency and the power to rewrite the story. Right. Have an alternative ending. Like they have in the movies. Right. What's the alternative ending. How can life be since this thing didn't happen. Right. And I think that there's power, there's a whole thing. Narrative therapy is all about focusing on the story, the story we tell ourselves, and that we actually have the power to change that story, make the meaning we want it to make, you know, and how do we reorganize? How do we move on from here? How do you realize that things are

Kat:

changed? Right.

Val:

And, how do we

Kat:

move forward? Yeah. And maybe you didn't want the change, but it doesn't mean it didn't

Val:

change. Okay. So interesting. I've talked about radical acceptance I think on the podcast before, and even that comes out of the DBT. if you're like a therapy junkie In that book, they cite the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. The acceptance. So radical acceptance is really building off of that. And I'll just say it again, that radical acceptance knows that there's going to be suffering in the world and in life. And what we're trying to do is reduce suffering and have an experience with the pain. And so we have choices. We can, one change the situation. Is there any way to get out of this terrible situation that we're in? Number two, can we see it differently? Can we reframe it Right. Is there a different way to look at this. That feels good. Number three. We can accept it, radically accept. This is what it is. I don't like it. I don't want it, but it is what it is. And if I accept it, I can move forward. Or The fourth choice is to stay stuck and to just be like, I don't want it. Nope. It's not happening. Little kids do that all the time. Right. They're just like, Hmm. if I don't look at it, it's not there.

Kat:

And that's allowed you to, that's part of it for awhile. That's the put your head in the sand That's okay. As soon as you're ready to come up for error, let's

Val:

reorganize Yeah.

Kat:

and then find some

Val:

humans. Oh, some good humans that make you feel good, that support, you that understand validate

Kat:

that can have a fucking real

Val:

conversation Hmm. Yeah. I was joking, I think in another episode about this meme I saw that said why don't we call it? Emotional baggage we missed a great opportunity for humor. We should've called it our grief case. And I just love that Funny, smart humor. And I do ask clients like, what are you going to put in

Kat:

your briefcase,

Val:

especially when you lose someone, or something, what things do you want to take with you how are you sort of packing up after

Kat:

it's all over?

Val:

What are you taking with you and what aren't you taking with you? Because sometimes there's expectations, we've heard people say, like, I have to do it. Cause my, you know, my dad would have wanted it or, this is what he thought that was supposed to be for my life. You can decide, do you want to take that with you? Or do you lay that down?

Kat:

Well, is it resonant with what you're doing and reorganizing your own life?

Val:

so I did a guest podcasting with this one young woman, her podcast is called good grief. Jessie. and She lost literally everyone in her nuclear family. one by one. How is she reorganizing? and moving? She's created a podcast that talks in an irreverent, like funny way about grief, so that's one example of how she's taken that. with her. And brought that, grief with her probably for the rest of her. life.

Kat:

Right. Good job.

Val:

Ooh, that's

Kat:

We did a Val, I think we're wrapping up now.

Val:

I think we are. And it was, sprawling and messy and, and amazing. And intense.

Kat:

what's bringing you some pleasure.

Val:

today. Hmm. I think just being able to talk about, these things, you know one of our faithful listeners, he calls after every podcast. I just mean so much to me. And I think that he's just really thanking us for our vulnerability to share about these things and his experiences might be different, but the themes are, resonating. And it's bringing our friendship closer, like this is a form of alchemy to putting this out in the world all the grief that we've experienced and passing that along and sharing that with others, I think is really bringing me a lot of pleasure. right now. What about you?

Kat:

Well, this sounds a little strange, but like, Just crying with you as my like

Val:

kind friend

Kat:

it's oddly pleasure. Like to be witnessed, to be so safe, I feel super safe. Right. And then I feel honored in my story and in my journey and in my pain. Right. So like, that's the beautiful thing of like, you know, we talk about these three questions and how you deepen your relationship with other people. And we are all constantly evolving. I mean, if we choose to right, you could make the choice not to, but it feels really good evolve with other safe humans. And like, it feels really good that we've cultivated this friendship. And so in a strange way, it feels like, like pleasure to be exposed and vulnerable with you and with our

Val:

listeners. Yeah. Thank you for going along this journey with us, we love, you

Kat:

listeners. We're so glad you're here. We appreciate you so

Val:

much. in Malibu cat.

Kat:

I love you, Val. Bye.

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host