3 Questions with Kat & Val

Breaking Up Is Hard to Do

• Season 1 • Episode 14

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. Kat. we're here. It's pod cast.

Kat:

Hi

Val:

Hi,

Kat:

listeners. We hope that you are sufficiently tantalized.

Val:

Oh oh, That sounds like a very, formal lover. I hope you're sufficiently tantalizing.

Kat:

Well, okay. So seriously, it was, it was weeks ago now that I was like, I got the idea to like Taylor swift about this. And, um, I thought it was the funniest fucking thing ever to be like, I have a fucking podcast. So like coping with a breakup I'm going to tear a swift on you motherfuckers. Yeah. Watch yourself people. So in

Val:

tell my story,

Kat:

yeah. You know, like the stages of grief, I think it was like an anger stage.

Val:

And now you're like, oh, listeners. I love to be on the sidelines with my popcorn. Watching cat does run headlong into things that are going to hurt later.

Kat:

oh my God.

Val:

Ah,

Kat:

Thank you for that.

Val:

cause I know you have to do, them. right. Even he, the other day. I don't know if you want to tell this story Even the day, You're like, I did a thing and I was like, what'd you do Kat? And then you're like, I want to call somebody. I'm like, I know she's just going to do it. You're not even asking my opinion, your.

Kat:

I also some of this is my personality. I can't fucking help it

Val:

I actually really do feel like it's an ADHD thing. We haven't brought a bait HD in a while. Oh, I see it. Humans who have ADHD. When they have a thing in their mind And I've talked about this with my husband. There's no compromising, there's no compromising. It's like, this is how you do it. And I've seen that in YouTube. Dear friend.

Kat:

Oh, I don't deny that

Val:

You're not changing my mind on the title. Val,

Kat:

You know, that's really funny. Cause I don't think of myself as being particularly rigid. Like I'm pretty open-minded and kind of chill about a lot of shit, but yeah, once in a while I'll dig in and I'm like, Nope,

Val:

I just think It's clarity of idea. and maybe a Tiny bit of that hyper-focus and just like, No, this is it also. I really respect it in many ways. a great energy to. I know that you just have to do this.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. So I have ADHD and I'm like a triple fireside. That's a lie. That's a lot of. PECI Lewis energy that lives in me sometimes. That's why I have to nap so much. It seems counterintuitive, but I'm telling

Val:

no cause you yeah, he's exhausting. to be that hyped up. Be that.

Kat:

Oh my God.

Val:

my gosh.

Kat:

So in case we're being a little too vague and maybe you didn't listen to the last episode, this episode is about breaking up like romantic breakups. And

Val:

breaking up

Kat:

just had this like profound experience of being like intensely in love with someone and then it not working out the way I wanted it to and value have a lot of fucking great wisdom about. things you share with your clients and things that you've lived through about like breaking up and romantic partnerships. And, and so we are going to do our best to like lay some shit bare and then like, maybe give you some like, you know, helpful things. If you're going through a breakup or, you know

Val:

you know, someone who's going through a breakup

Kat:

Just tell them to listen to the podcast.

Val:

Yeah. And I think Right? Part of this podcast is us. telling a story is telling about our lives. and It's a human experience. Right. And that's kind of what we do is. we bring The human to the human experience.

Kat:

experience Yeah. So this human experience

Val:

Go ahead. Kat, we're going to start with you

Kat:

We'll start at the very beginning. It was the week of Thanksgiving motherfuckers.

Val:

It was

Kat:

Well, um, so just to share a little bit, I had been dating, as many people as I could, Last year and exploring something called non-monogamy or polyamory and learning a lot about myself. Because I wasn't really sure, like, am I the kind of person that can be in love with more than one person at once? I don't know that about myself. Am I someone that can like date and like, go out and have a fun time with this person and go out and have fun time with this person. that looks a little bit more like just non-monogamy and I'm like, yeah, I can do that. That's, that's kind of fun for me. But then I was flirting with someone and it escalated really fast and I just couldn't fucking believe how much I liked them. And then the, kind of intensity of falling in love really. And her falling in love with me too. And it feeling like I had met my soulmate. And, um

Val:

was on a little six week trip. And you were like, Hey,

Kat:

Yeah. If you guys listened to the earlier podcasts, you hear me say it, I'm like fucking delighted. I'm like I have to love is amazing. And It feels really, really good to be in love.

Val:

and it was amazing. can we hold the both and

Kat:

Oh yeah Yeah. there's no part of me. That's trying to like burn shit down, even though I am a triple fire sign. even again, like referencing the joke I was making about Taylor sifting. I also have to go through all the stages of grief, but the truer thing is, is there's no part of me that would assassinate someone's character or, oh, they're trash because they're not

Val:

Right. And if, and if we're not getting the cultural reference. Anybody out there doesn't know Taylor

Kat:

swift

Val:

uh she's. well, she's, infamous for, talking about her

Kat:

not infamous famous. I love this quality about her. She's also a Sagittarius, so she's a fire sign So she sings about all of her past lovers. Right. And she'll

Val:

does a Dell, so, I mean, so

Kat:

know I'm going to reference an Adele song.

Val:

oh yeah.

Kat:

So that kind of is part of my healing journey. And this is a

Val:

You got to know yourself to know if you can handle listening to an Adele song. Can you emotionally. handle it?

Kat:

So this profound connection that I, I have, it happened really fast. I am the kind of person that likes to run at stuff, it's these fire signs, it's the ADHD, it's it feels good. And I lived so much of my life, really measured and like self controlled because of purity culture and because of the religious construct we were in. I can tell there is this thing in me, that's like, fuck everything. I'm going to be a messy bitch. I didn't get to do any of that fucking shit. Right. And so now I'm like, oh, I'm so like a wise I'm like a deeply wise, really embodied person. So I think that I should be able to do what the fuck I wanna do.

Val:

And if you run at things, like all that wisdom is going to just be on autopilot.

Kat:

It turns out that. Genuinely a wise person, like it's really true, but also kind of fucking naive. Like I haven't actually been in that many, like in love relationships, right. This person who like racked my whole fucking world and it's going to be hard for me not to cry. I just do cry a lot. So listeners, you can just like trust that I'm okay. Val is here with me. Val is like the best human in the whole fucking world.

Val:

well look, I want to normalize that, we are all really stupid. in love. We're all really stupid. And that was part of my story? That like, shit, I did not make a God to suit to that first. after a couple of years, I was like, shit, what did I do? I missed blind spots and we all have that blind spot Every healer has that blind spot. that's part of the pressure I felt in, being a pastor was like, I had to marriage had to last And that's just not true because I think that all the chemicals that get released at the dopamine and the oxytocin, they're like a bright light. shining. And so all the red flags get hidden,

Kat:

So like bleached out. That's funny. You

Val:

their bleeds. Tell You kids, see him

Kat:

That's a great visual. Yeah. and then also in the beginning of a love connection, especially when the chemistry is so intense but the experience that I just had with this, like amazing. Was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. And I was like, this is so unique. It must be, I found my forever person. And it was interesting because it was at a time I wasn't looking for a forever person. I was looking to like, have more people to date and have new experiences with and connect

Val:

I remember you were, do you want to hang out this weekend? Oh, I got like three dates. Yes, you were on that train

Kat:

yeah. And so that was the other thing. It felt really kind of mystical because the connection was so profound and so strong, even though we were long distance, they live states away from me. I paused all of my sexual connections just because I was like, whoa. And again, I was in that discovery phase of like, am I someone that can be in love with multiple people at the same time? And I still don't totally know if I know the answer to that, but this experience made me feel like, I don't think I can, but also, obviously if you've been listening to the podcast, I'm someone that has kind of big energy. I take up a lot of space in the world. and so that was one thing that's really true of this woman I was in love with is that, she's a force. And one of the things that would sort of amaze us that were like, yeah, I've never met anyone that can match my energy, the way you match my energy. And it felt so. Balanced. And, where we had a lot of compatibility and then there were some areas where I was strong and they were her weaker areas and then areas where I was weak and they were her, her like excelling areas. And I thought, holy shit, this is so amazing, you know? And then, she made me feel. So good in ways that I've never felt before. And, I'm just someone who is woo enough to be like magic happens and you're like aligned. And so the, the universe brings people into your life.

Val:

with love, you always got to double check the university's work. Okay. You can quote me on that. I just came up with that. You always have to double check the university's work when it

Kat:

do that What does that even mean? I love it

Val:

but yeah, I would tell all my clients this week, all the booboo bitches that I have worked with, I love you

Kat:

Oh my God. Once the relationship started getting like more complex, Um, we were, we were talking about attachment styles and so she has a disorganized attachment style. And so that was really showing up in our relationship. Was that. They would pull back in some ways or they would get sort of like overwhelmed and, would trigger this like anxiety in me I have to fix all this. And, they were really faithful at doing like a lot of internal work. And I was so in awe of how much they could kind of process and synthesize. And because they were in therapy and they were doing all their trauma work, it just kept feeling like this is going to be fine. This thing that I'm like, that's kind of a red flag. I was like, that's okay. We can heal all this shit. We're going to heal each other. It's going to be amazing we had like some really profound experiences that felt like healing, you know, to both of us. We had said a lot of things back and forth to each other. It felt like we were going to have a future together. at one point she called me the love of her and and then she broke up with me. Um, and we were trying to decide if we, could be friends and I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure what I was capable of because. I was aware that I was just really, really in love with her. And I had a really hard time letting go of these things that we said back and forth to each other. That again, if you've listened to last week's episode, we were talking about like, how do you reorganize yourself? I had jumped all the way in and I was so enthralled with this human I don't know how to not be in love with you I don't know that I could just be your friend. So we're trying to figure that out. And we had a check-in conversation. I actually, we were just texting, but it was two weeks after she had broken up with me. She told me she was in love with somebody else and I was, I was really devastated. full disclosure, it's not like it was stranger. It when we had met, we were trying to explore we're long distance. We should still be able to, mean date other people. This was someone that she had had been kind of on and off again with

Val:

Because can I say,

Kat:

yeah

Val:

I think you both were sort of exploring polyamory.

Kat:

Yeah. This was their first time, and actually their therapist was like, would you consider trying polyamory because it helps you not get so like obsessive about one person, that's the theory, We got pretty obsessive about each other. So Again, in one of the earlier episodes, I referenced the fact that I needed to center myself because I was noticing that the attachment style issues that kept showing up and, their connection with this other person was creating a lot of, dissonance. And I just couldn't seem to settle. I'm going to have to let go of this connection. So during that conversation, I was like, but I'll still be your friend. And, um, and then she ended up breaking it off with that other person. And then we were like, supposedly just going to try to be like, I don't know what we thought we were trying to be, but basically we were back together and we were kind of monogamous for this like brief window, but she was trying to send to herself and I was trying to cheerlead I just wanted her so bad. I just wanted her and. Absolutely in love with her. And then about a month goes by and then, she just couldn't, And so it's interesting because the first conversation she had with I like, could barely hear it. I could barely hear that this was really a breakup and I heard the words I'm not dumb, but that was on a Thursday. And then by Saturday I was like, okay, so. What are you saying again? And so,

Val:

Well and again like you heard the words, but I think what happens is when you have such a deep connection when like futures have been planned, right. When you hear something like your, the level of my life then when, when there's like a screech you know, the brakes are put on It,

Kat:

And then it feels like, it feels like it cancels out everything. Right. Cause like the way that we were together, it felt so profound. And so. How does that end? Right. Does that mean that everything was a lie? You know, and I remember asking that question, like, what does that, what does that mean? And their response back was like, I don't know, except I know I can't even ask that question. I can't analyze whether, you know, any of that was real or not real. I just know that we loved each other and. That she needed to make these changes. And the other thing that was true is that both of us were doing this shape-shifting thing where we were just doing things that weren't in alignment with. Was in front of us and our regular life to do, you know, like they had some big transitions they were trying to work through and they were acknowledging to themselves that because of their relationship with me, they were trying to factor me into some things that they needed. It, they needed to just be themselves. Like they needed some time to really just be on their own. But then they fucking fell in love with someone two weeks after breaking up with me. So I think that was the other thing that was really hard too. I was like, I can understand you need to send to yourself, but then, what hurts so bad is that it felt like, well, you just, you picked this how could you have space for that after what we had together? And cause that's the other thing we do we project our own experiences on to other people, and as I was trying to like, make sense of all this stuff, I was like, well, I guess we weren't soulmates, like maybe we're twin flames, I'm enough of a blue bitch that I'm like looking for something to try to like. Figure out the story here, like it created such dissonance, right. To have this high, high, but then this low, low

Val:

because we want to make sense out of what happened, And some of it I think is actually, it's for survival. Like I think that we need to understand it so that we can make sense so that we know how to move forward. Right? Like, wait a minute. Cause we all have. Mindsets about the world Right. And how things should work. And, well, This is this. And that is that. And then when information gets introduced. Like, wait a

Kat:

minute, it doesn't fit.

Val:

doesn't fit. So Then we get thrown off.

Kat:

Oh, I was thrown off

Val:

we get thrown off and then we're like, wait. is it So has everything changed? Like, And nobody told me like, what was this? So that next time I go to try to be in love. I know. In my work with people who are dating, trying to figure out the why so difficult.

Kat:

Well, what you're saying makes a lot of sense because I think it didn't fit in my paradigm. I was like this person. Is my person. And one time we're having this really like tender, intimate conversation and we're looking deeply into each other's eyes and, and with like awe and her voice, she goes, you isn't Such clear conviction on my side, I looked her in the eye and I was like, yeah. And that moment felt transcendent. You know, it felt fucking mystical. It felt like nothing I'd ever experienced with another human being. So I don't know how I can have that. And then for like weeks later, You to be in love with somebody else. And, for us not to be in a romantic relationship, I do not know how to integrate the information. I don't know how to do that. And so man, one of the most helpful things as I was like experiencing all this grief and like, it really took me a while, to like, believe that we'd broken up until my brain wanted to like solve the puzzle. Right. I wanted to believe that they were going to. Focused on themselves and like do some more of their like inner healing work and then they would come find me. That's just, I was like, that is the story that actually makes any sense at all. Nothing else makes sense, except for you need to go do some of your stuff and I'm supportive of that. And I'm just going to like, you know, do my own thing for a little bit and then you'll come find me. But what's interesting is like nothing in our relationship actually. Informed the idea that she would ever do that. She actually is kind of risk adverse and conflict averse. And I don't know that she would ever do that. And I could be wrong, and so, you know, I. When I, when I realized that like, oh my God, this is really over this story is that's what the So it was like a long time of just trying to orient myself and it'd be like, how did this even fucking happen? And then the pain. Oh, my God, I can't trust myself. Cause that was what I was so emboldened in. You know, it was like I had, you know, lived within this really rigid paradigm. And so I didn't get to do any of this exploration. And then I have, you know, many people who come out late in life. It's like a second adolescence. It really, really is. And so you're experiencing for the very first time and yes, I'm a fucking grownup and I'm wise and I'm embodied and all these great things, but, I did not know that I. That some people could match me to a certain point, but then not be able to hold the intensity of what this experience was The amount of vulnerability that it requires to be in love with me is, is high. It really is you know, I used to kind of make the joke about how I wanted to crawl into their bone marrow and that's, it's not an exaggeration. It's, something I'm capable of, right? Yeah. Maybe every human being out there in the world, isn't capable of the kind of intimacy that I am. I'm just capable of it. And so I wanted, and so I want someone to be able to meet me in that place. Maybe ultimately after this, I decided that maybe that's not the way to go. That's not the expectation I have on people. So, but I did I did ask her to rise from. And I know that she tried, um, and she was above and beyond and a lot of ways too. And she fucking blew my mind at how incredible but I don't think she could hold it. And then later in one of our like post post breakup conversations, was trying to share with me, she was like, Catherine, you're not looking honestly, at these red flags, she's saying things like I actually am deeply insecure and I, I do have all this internalized fat phobia still, and I do have all of these things and she was sort of listing all these things that I was like, I have to take her at her word instead of projecting my idealism onto someone else. and she's healing and doing her work and doing all these things, but also, has to go at the pace that fucking makes sense to her that she can fucking bear. It was interesting to look for the things of where I don't want to say that I demanded too much, but I'm just wanting to own that. I'm a lot, not in a way that I'm apologizing for saying is wrong or bad, but. Not everyone's going to be up for that. And I think she really have wanted to be, and then ultimately it was like, whether it's timing or whether it's wet or you know, that's a whole other thing. Um, she had to so then there was this other person in her world that like just And she knows how be. She knows how to be in that versus

Val:

Why don't we break for Story Thank you so much for sharing with this cat going to come back how do you, where do you go? Where does a broken heart go for Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening to our commercials Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper

Kat:

I It's okay. I'm okay.

Val:

Were you worried about our listeners?

Kat:

Yeah. I'm like, you're like, let's throw your commercial while you're crying in a puddle.

Val:

Yes. Yes. Please listen to our commercials. Oh, that might not sound good.

Kat:

Yeah, because the commercial is like, are you looking for love?

Val:

Okay folks, you're just witnessing. That was not a good, all right. Maybe we're going to throw it a commercials now.

Kat:

No, no, no, it's

Val:

okay. I'm okay.

Kat:

That's so funny

Val:

of our little nephews fell down and was like, I'm going to take guys. I don't think I'm going to say so if you could, I always say that I'm Otay. I'm Otay.

Kat:

that's me. That's what I'm saying right now.

Val:

You're Otay. Ooh.

Kat:

I am a messy bitch. And we're going to talk about like, I'm still healing, it's still relatively fresh. So I wanted to acknowledge that what I found the most helpful was that In particular, you and another close friend who is also therapist was telling me stories where like, you're like, yeah, I know what it feels like. to have that like intense connection and, I didn't finish my thought, but I was like looking up twin flames, but then also. Googling like Trauma bonds. And I was like, I think this is two ways of saying the same thing, you know, I'm enough of a woo bitch. That I wanted to be something. The goal connection. Right. But also

Val:

it a twin flame or is it drama?

Kat:

know, like we used to say to each other, like, You feel like home? You're so familiar. in that I was reading about trauma bonds Or like, if someone says you feel like,

Val:

oh man, And maybe you think that you bonded over having some similar trauma?

Kat:

We just have had similar trauma and we, You know, again, in one of the earlier episodes, we sort of make a joke about. me Being like what? You don't want to talk about trauma all the time. because I'm like, We're healing it, we're healing all the trauma and they're like, ah, this is a lot.

Val:

It seems like you're having a real great time over here and that ouch. For people who maybe had never heard of a twin flame, can you

Kat:

no just Google it? Jesus crisis and fairs.

Val:

I'm like, don't be mean to our listeners. Oh, okay. Nope. You brought it up, you ran right to it. Bitch. You got to explain it.

Kat:

Okay. So, um, my limited research into twin flames is ID. like your soul is split in half and you have this other half out there in the world. I know. But then It's like the kind of connection that's, kind of can be kind of tumultuous and sometimes you guys can work through it and sometimes not. And it's supposed to provoke some big growth in your life.

Val:

So maybe it doesn't mean that you have to be with this person forever, but maybe they provoked growth in you.

Kat:

I think they're trying that connection. Right. And what's interesting when you read about like Trump. it really sounds similar. Like seriously people, you could Google both of these things and they read various similarly the, what is it about human beings? where you can have some shared trauma and then you feel like, oh my God, you're Yeah. So my Googling of twin flames and trauma, bonding was like in the height of me, like just looking to find a story that makes sense. So I know that trauma bonding is actually like a larger fuller thing. And so I I just was picking and choosing little cherry picking because I was trying to find something to make sense of it. Yeah. Well, okay. So I got it through my head that like we're broken up, it wasn't event I had to reorganize my whole self from afterwards. Right. And then there's the loss. And then the grief, and then there's. this Sensation of like, oh my God, what does this mean about my ability to trust myself? Right. And so all these things are in the mix. I'm trying really

Val:

to make sense

Kat:

Yeah I want it to make sense. And sometimes things really just don't make sense and That was the conclusion I didn't want to have to come to because it's interesting. I talk a big game about not having like big control and outcome and stuff like that. Right. being, not attached to outcome but as the truth is like the idea that this doesn't have mean. Or that just bad things happen or like, things just don't work out the way we want. Sometimes I was like, now I don't like that. This story does not resonate with me.

Val:

isn't a good story. Let's throw this book away.

Kat:

yeah. And so I'm like, I live with a lot of gratitude. That's just a normal part of my life. And so. Is there something I can be grateful for? Nothing felt like I could hold onto it And again? That's the thing like, you know, last week we talked about grief, grief is a mother fucker. right? And then sometimes we have our personal grief in the context of a larger grief, the culture, and there's all these different things. And so is it. Hard time to be experiencing a breakup also is mercury retrograde motherfuckers.

Val:

yes. Can I say a few things that, I think I've, I've observed about relationships. So this, part, the second half of this podcast episode is like, how do you get up? Where do broken hearts go? This is my alternate title. Where do broken hearts

Kat:

do they go?

Val:

Well, they find their way home.

Kat:

Home is yourself. You are home. Yeah. Turns out

Val:

Here's the thing. If I can get something through to the people who are dating, this could be a savvy to your broken heart, is that we want to know the answer, why we want a diagnostic of what happened. What's the real reason this is not working. I don't think that we really ever get the real. To be honest

Kat:

because you can't, you can't, the other person, has their own story

Val:

the other person sometimes doesn't even know. So if you want to say, tell me why they, might not really be able to get to the why or explain it because feelings, attraction is all incredibly complicated, right? There's also some things that are hard to say and explain like, I just wasn't feeling it anymore. Or like, I don't think this is it. those things are

Kat:

Oh and it hurts my feelings

Val:

and I'm not talking about you specifically.

Kat:

No, she said that shit to me. Yeah.

Val:

Oh, she said that to

Kat:

Yeah. She said that she wasn't no longer feeling the things that she felt that she should And she was also explaining it in the context of being really overwhelmed. And so she was like, I don't know why I'm but like, these are all the things. you know,

Val:

So I get messages helped me. I'm fixating, I'm waking up. So then I tell them to ask themselves, what are you really wanting? Is it that you want, answers so that you can trust yourself next time? Is it cause you need closure? Is it because you have a belief about yourself are you suspicious about the answer? So, so a lot of times it's, I'll get soothed by knowing a real answer. Okay. I don't know that the answer is really going to Sue you. So another way to Sue. Something that you said, I asked, why does it feel so important this love was right? Because if it wasn't and how can myself And you're the one who coined the phrase. Like, I didn't think that she could hold what we

Kat:

actually that wasn't me. that was my other good friend Who's also, a

Val:

oh, shout out to the other good registered

Kat:

know I have the best fucking friends I'm the luckiest

Val:

but that made so much sense I think what drives people to stay up late at night is that it felt real in the moment. And there's the dissonance again, there's the dissonance that causes pain. It felt real. They said it was real, but now they're saying either it wasn't, or it's not going to last. And so how can I trust myself? And when your friend said, I, I just don't think they could hold it. That just felt like such a great tool to share with people, because then it's like the, both. True at once. Right? It was real. It was just for whatever reason, it either it didn't stick because they just didn't like you,

Kat:

impossible.

Val:

I know that seems impossible, but I also want to be truthful. Right. Cause we can, we can handle the truth

Kat:

sometimes,

Val:

right. Or their trauma or their attachment style or whatever they've got going on in their life. They were there with you in that moment. And they're like, yes, I want that. And they couldn't hold it for whatever reason, oh, so helpful. That's golden.

Kat:

Yeah. I mean, it's still fucking over and you're like, that's not what I wanted to happen

Val:

Right. And I think that's where we can use the radical acceptance. I think we talked about

Kat:

that last time

Val:

But can I also say, so when you were talking

Kat:

yeah

Val:

about when the relationship was getting this kind of on again, off

Kat:

right The attachment style stuff was getting wrong,

Val:

it was yes. And I think it's the love stinks episode that we talk a lot about attachment. If you want to go back to that one, you were talking and secretly I was like, oh shit, this sounds like an experience I had in college in Bible college that we both went to with a person that, you know,

Kat:

I know, I know this

Val:

I will call actually, I thought about calling him Romeo. Cause we don't want to use people's real names that, that were.

Kat:

Romeo is a really appropriate,

Val:

I was a little baby, right? Probably very naive in relationship, um, understanding

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

actually funny story His cousin was in our dorm and I saw a picture and I was like, Ooh, who's that? And I pointed the Romeo and I said, oh, that's my cousin. I said, oh, tell him to come here. He's cute. Next semester.

Kat:

Right. I know. I remember. You like, made out

Val:

Oh my That

Kat:

was such a big deal. in this fucking conservative, goddamn

Val:

Oh, I can spell a little TIVA. I will. I will. Um, yes we did. We'll, we dated for a while, okay. You were telling your story. Oh, shit. This sounds like my stupid saga with Romeo, but I didn't want to offend you because we were a little babies and I didn't have this deep, connection that, you all had. But I was like, oh no, this, sounds

Kat:

Oh I used to say that like, when some of this First started happening. I was like, it feels like they are like a fuck boy with a savior complex.

Val:

So it was the same thing that like, we'd get close. I'm like, wow. people. Oh, they're like destined to be together. Aren't

Kat:

they?

Val:

we kept being together. I think we were only dating actually for a little while and then it was on again off again. Yeah, we would, we would make out. And that was a big deal of avocados and purity culture. You could get kicked out of school for anything more than that. And then it'll be on. And then he broke up with me and dated this other girl that was both of our friends anyway, even I moved to the bay area, he's from the bay area. Right. So I see him and, we do kiss again a couple of

Kat:

times. I wish you guys could see your face right now. Her face is like scrunched up and went, wait. Oh my kids again, sometimes

Val:

Oh, So

Kat:

hate you already called her So much It's such a big deal

Val:

Like, and it's just the flirting. We all leave and work together. How could I forget that? We worked together. coworkers saw the, sorry. Twin flame. Crackling. no fucking to blame. Like they saw the, attraction, like chemistry. This is where I was like, oh, I'm going to tell cat about that. He's like, yeah, I don't think we ever have a future. I want a date I'm in love with your best friend. Best friend joined at the hip all through college roommates, even in San Francisco. I'm in love with her. Biggest gift I could have gotten because it was the one thing.

Kat:

Wait finish the thought though. It was the one thing that you're like, no, I'm done game over

Val:

Game over if you like my best friend. No. And so that happened to

Kat:

Two weeks after she broke up with me, she said, she's in love with this other woman and he used the word in love. And in the moment it's did not want her to know how fucking that was to, read Actually we were texting And then later I did call my other friend, who's the therapist and fucking screamed and raged. Cause I was like very galled by that, honestly, But it was the thing that got me off the road. It was the thing that I was like sometimes

Val:

I think, fuck boys know that like, if I just can cut the cord, what's the one thing they could never come back from. And so. it's this pattern. and I'm like, I'm sorry if this offends you to be compared to a situation with this Robio but you said that. I was in good company. Like you felt stupid. I felt so stupid. I'm supposed to be the smart girl. I'm supposed to have like a good head on my shoulders. And I went straight for the fuck boy. And like, went through all this bullshit. And had the blind spots. Right. So it was like the cycle we have to listen to people we also can't be like, oh, that's their trauma. And it can fix,

Kat:

I wanted to fix them so bad I wanted us to heal together. I thought that. So too idealistic about it all.

Val:

I know.

Kat:

Some of their behavior does look like, fuck boy, with a savior complex. Like, I was really proud of myself recording that phrase. but I also want to say, that's not them in their entirety, right? They're not a one dimensional. villain.

Val:

no Of

Kat:

yeah. Both Of these people are not villain. Yours is a little bit like an asshole. No, I'm kidding. I'm joking. But like, I just wanted to like throw that back in there because like, I'm not trying to like burn the shit up and I'm not trying. to like Really like get vengeance or like get back at her. So I'm just trying to tell the truth of like Jesus Christ. This was really hard and I'm not the only ones experience you've experienced it. my other friend's experience. We're out here having these fucking experiences where you're like, I do not know how to reorganize my. This is fucking devastating. How do I come back from this? How do I trust myself again? Right? Why is this so fucking hard?

Val:

And I think, you've said, okay. I think there were some red flags, like, this is what I would tell clients. Right? Like I think there were some red flags and actually cat. I don't think I'd be the best therapist for you sometimes. Although you say you do listen back to the podcast, And use some of the things I say, I tell people, look there's no behavior that's right or wrong. It's just how helpful is it? So I said, look, you could go ahead and go into the future after one day and decide your children's names and where you're going to live. The only thing you need to know is that the further into the future, you go. The harder the fall is to come back to, present day. That's all you have to be aware of. And for you you're ready for the fall because you're like I have

Kat:

my God, I'm a cocky motherfucker sometimes. So seriously. I

Val:

I'm glad you finally, I'm glad you finally admitted that on this podcast because

Kat:

I own that shit, motherfucker.

Val:

I give you, cause I have reactions to some of the things you say, I sound like, fuck, you know, gathered that's bullshit, but then I feel bad cause I'm trying to be a more open person and like whatever. like whatever, maybe the way I think about it. Isn't right. But yes, I love it. I love all of

Kat:

no, it. is it's okay. Some of it is Like, my hyper fixation or whatever. Yeah. I know what it feels like to end a long-term marriage, you know, like I have survived heartbreak, right. And so I was like willing to run hard at this, thing that was making me feel so good. And I was like, yeah, if it doesn't work out, I'm going to be okay. Is it, So then that's not, not true. It just hurt. like damn is dating cries so fucking much

Val:

So look also with dating. This is what I like to tell you.

Kat:

yeah, Look,

Val:

daily dating is a motherfucking Rola causer.

Kat:

is. a roller

Val:

And do you know why

Kat:

Tell

Val:

Because these are strangers fucker. These are strangers. You don't know them when you see a dog in. Public that you do not know you ask, can I touch it? Because you don't know what this dog is going to do. Is it going to bite you? Is it going to slobber all over you? Is it going to eat your lunch? You, this is a stranger. These people are strangers. You

Kat:

is anyone going to date?

Val:

meet exactly. This is why it's so torturing. You have actually decided to go on a rollercoaster that you have never seen the preview video. You don't know when the next loop is coming. That is why it's so unpredictable. I say, if you dated Ken or, Jen from the office, And you're like, oh, okay. I can kind of see he's like, he's funny, he's quiet. if you're going to start dating somebody that you already know, it's not going to be as wild of a ride because you're like, okay, I kind of have a little

Kat:

That makes perfect

Val:

so they're strangers.

Kat:

Yeah I got it.

Val:

Where okay. I'm trying to,

Kat:

I know

Val:

I'm trying to transition out of my thought to another

Kat:

sorry. Well, okay. I

Val:

Oh, you're sad. Okay. Okay. What else? Well, what do you want to talk about next then? Sad,

Kat:

Yeah well, because it just saves me overwhelmed. Like I do want to be in love again. And so. like, you know, I don't know, Val,

Val:

Oh I'm

Kat:

is it worth it

Val:

I'm not being very,

Kat:

like a love doulos like, everybody's a stranger.

Val:

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I want to get you ready for the right. Like, look, I'm the person that I want to walk around the rollercoaster and see, okay. How many flips is there? Because I could, I can.

Kat:

totally,

Val:

That's the only my personality.

Kat:

Yeah No, but that's what your career too. And you're really good. at it. So I should have taken your, like, prepare yourself for love. Of course, this whole thing could've been avoided. I wouldn't have been crying for weeks on end. Oh, wait, I don't think this thing could have been avoided. There was no way. I wasn't going to do all

Val:

No, no. And

Kat:

there was no way. someone is shiny as I'm showed up. I wasn't going

Val:

that's why remember when you were like, should I break up with them? I was like, I know, I know. You're not, I know you're not because we all you have to go for it. I think that's amazing. I do.

Kat:

Like for me, I feel like the biggest one is the reorganization. And I like what you said too, like the further you project out into the future, the harder the fall, is and I know what was so interesting about this connection is that neither one of us was trying to do that. We just, tap and We kind of both ran into each other really hard.

Val:

so how are you reorganizing after?

Kat:

Well, I think it's still early enough that I'm working on it and you know, after a few weeks I was like, I recognized that I was fixating. And so I'm like, well, I need to introduce some new strangers.

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

and great

Val:

strategy for anxious attached, especially

Kat:

sure Yeah

Val:

get some more people in your

Kat:

Yeah. And also it's the thing of. like, a new connection reminds you that this last person was not the only person that's going to be into you. Right but also it's painful because it's new, right? These connections are, there is no ability in me to run out someone, right? Like Sometime I will have that ability again. One person was the short-lived interaction. That met a need for me for a short window. And then I cut them loose pretty quickly, like after about a week, because I just I couldn't I didn't have capacity. So I was like, thank you. And I was really upfront everyone knows. I'm like dealing with a heartbreak. So, I'm good at owning my shit,

Val:

you said you wanted to make sure you said this in the podcast about how like flirting, with new people can be great, but, there is something about being known and that different energy about like strangers take a lot of

Kat:

they really do Yeah. So it's interesting. Getting other people in my life that I could, engage with in this particular way, like where there's some flirtatious and sexual energy exchange but I'm even aware of the fact that like, can't hold anyone. Else's hard life stuff. Like. at all. All of this other persons, this person I was in love with I just gobbled up her truck and I was holding so much space for it. So now I'm really aware that like I have almost no capacity to even be. like, oh, that sounds hard. I'm really sorry to hear that. It's really, I keep, I keep hearing myself go say like good luck with that. I'm not trying to be an asshole.

Val:

No, you, you, I know that you've been good about your boundaries. Like, Hey, I don't have that capacity for that.

Kat:

And then when I feel the need to, like, the grief just keeps showing up, I just, I cry, the shifting has slowly been happening. And then for me, I decided to, well, I don't think I told this part of the story, but after, she said that she was in love with this other that again when we were together, it was creating dissonance. This particular and so, I decided that was no way for me to still be in their life if they were I knew that the other person was, really jealous of me. And I just thought, I feel so shitty to me, it feels so bad in my body to like, try to maintain any kind of connection with this person. When you know, I just know that it's going to make them feel gross And if you love this person, then I can't. I just can't. So I cut off communication, which. again, Devastating honest to God devastating, but then it was like the pressure was building and building and building until like literally this one. I was a little high and I, that felt like just kind of like a good excuse to be like, text them. to be like, Oh, it's because I'm high, but really Jesus Christ almost every day, I'd be like, I'm going to call them. And so I did end up texting and then their response was really like, kind of Curt. and, it popped the bubble for me and I was like,

Val:

See, in the past I don't think I would. counsel someone to do that, but now it's like, just taking a different route of like, I don't know. What do you think like, and, for you, that was what you needed was to kind of pop that bubble or it was a way you decided to go,

Kat:

I know but I think too, like our brains, when I do this thing and my brain kept wanting to be well, cause I, am still in love with this person. It's just not over for me I know that the relationship is over but my feeling. are all the way resolved yet and that's fine. It's fine. That, that's true. So my brain was creating a story where they were

Val:

was

Kat:

to get like a little interaction and whether or not it's true. Like, I mean, they didn't disclose that they've been thinking about me or not thinking about. me, but The invitation to talk was made available to them and they passed. It dispelled the part of me that wanted to lean into the story we both miss

Val:

terrible, um, that's thank you for sharing that. That's pretty intimate and like, I think helpful. No, it's, it's very intimate and helpful. I think for people listening. Can I also say. And wanted to make sure we sit on this podcast you know, we've referenced the attached book, which I really love. And they spend a bit of time in the beginning of the book talking about like, this is all normal, that everything in our body. from an evolutionary standpoint, all the chemicals, the dopamine, the oxytocin are actually trying to get us to bond. And so it is a ripping apart. And I know that that's what people feel and that, yes it's okay. And normal for you to know logically and to have this breakup, but still have those feelings even be in love with that person for a while afterwards, it hurts.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

I wanted to say something else too, that I think you did a very wise thing. And I wonder if that's why it's more painful now, right? Kind of the ripping off the bandaid instead of tearing it little bit by bit, is that a lot of people get stuck right. At the end of this relationship you're talking about, there started to become the cycle of can we say together, can we not this kind of a thing? And a lot of people get stuck in that side. And it was hard for you even with a very strong practice of self-centering to say, I have to center myself, this is not good for me.

Kat:

Well, yeah, cause my body's really communicative. So I mean, it really is like I just felt terrible. I had to get So

Val:

But I see people getting stuck in that and, everyone's talking about I don't want to waste time. I want to find someone, but I think instead of seeing it that way, cause we can't control when someone comes into our life that we mesh You can control how much time you spend. And again, we've talked about, Hey, sometimes you do put your head in the sand and, you're like, this isn't the best thing, but you're not ready to give it up yet. But I think if we pay more attention of when we're in pseudo relationships, which is maybe a term that we use to describe anything that isn't an intimate. Relationship

Kat:

you mean like committed. romantic

Val:

committed. And only if that's what you want. Right. It's only a pseudo relationship. If what you really want is, a committed. Relationship. And then you're, kind of settling for something that is pseudo what you want. And so there's lots of reasons why we stay in that and why that is maybe sometimes even safer

Kat:

Oh yeah. Well, totally. That makes a lot of sense because if you, it is safer because you get to do self-preservation you don't risk as much in Isn't that interesting, but then there's The dissonance Cause you're like, that's only partially. what I want. Yeah. Well, my other therapist friend said. I was looking for takeaways or things I could keep. And I think some of that will come. It's still kind of earliest. So there's still, lots of the grief is still a bit unwieldy, honestly. but one thing they said, what if one of the It is just trust is earned. Cause I, I really am very trusting and the reason why I'm so trusting, is cause I'm so trustworthy. I don't have the ability to be I don't know if that sounds like I'm blowing smoke up my own ass or something, but it creates dissonance in me too not tell my whole truth all the time. And I think maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I just, I love communicating. I love The, process of learning and understanding myself and learning and understanding someone else if there is something in my whole life I've hyper-focused on, it's that right? And so that's the energy I bring when I'm connecting with There's this new connection that we've only talked on the phone and message and we she was asking me do you think you'll be nervous we'll meet in real life. And I was like, you know, I get kind of the normal, nervous, excited feelings. But If you like me right now, you'll just like me more. in I just, this is really who I am. It doesn't occur to me that anybody else is doing You know what I mean? And So like, I'm trusting, everything that someone is saying to me. So if someone says, you're the love of my life. I think that means they want me And So it didn't occur to me that that could be a changeable thing, So I was driving an Adele send my love to your new lover, and I was just listening to the and, um, I wrote down some of the she sings, I forgiven it. you set me I got to let go of all of our And so the bubble that I had with this person, I cherish it. It felt like we were the best versions of ourselves, with each other. It felt so good to feel as she made me feel and how I got to be such a full and complex like version of I didn't want to let that go. I wanted this story to go different, but you know, and radical acceptance, right? Like she, let me go. And so I'm gonna do the same. And it was just interesting that like I hadn't thought about the word forgiveness that that's kind of a churchy word in my but, you know, as I heal, it was kind of interesting to wake up okay. So send my love to your new lover. I heard on the radio and then the next morning I woke up almost like in a dream state, and I was sort of dreaming that song and I was dreaming, you know, like sending this other. woman, send my love to this other woman and my conscious mind interrupted that like kind of generous thought, right. And was like, no, she called you the love of her life. And then I immediately was the awareness of like, oh, I'm just going to have to forgive whatever that meant to her and what it meant when I heard it, maybe they were the same at the time, but it was. obviously not something she could hold or follow And so then we just have to forgive people for being human. Right. And so, so that's the space I'm in yeah, sent me free and, try I'm not all the way there, but then, you know,

Val:

thank you so much for sharing. This has been a gift you've given.

Kat:

Has this been helpful to any of You guys, on a now? Is this just like trauma porn? Like, let me just pour my heart out Okay. But please. Seriously. If this was actually helpful, I just need you. I am. begging you. need like immediate feedback. of like, thank you, Kat. This is very helpful.

Val:

We said it already in this episode, there's power when someone else shares or you're like, yeah, me too,

Kat:

Yeah. I hope I made it really clear. Like the reason why I wanted to do this episode was because you sharing and then this other person sharing of really similar kind of. dynamics And it not going the way you wanted. It felt like a life raft.

Val:

And that

Kat:

It really did instead of getting completely towed under I'm like, oh, I'm not alone. And you're fine. Look at you. So happily married with the gyrating hips. That's a success story.

Val:

and I think we've shared this. We're not trying to save anyone or tell anyone how to live instead in the new version of ourselves in our new, jobs, we're just sharing and putting out into the world Of course we would want our stories to Oh, I was going to say help people.

Kat:

Oh, yeah. I've got some more healing. Oh

Val:

My dear friend. I love you so

Kat:

Thanks for being on this ride with us

Val:

Uh, until next time I love you.

Kat:

Bye.

Val:

Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat:

Living in a culture that preaches conformity to narrow beauty standards. It feels really good to own art that celebrates honors and glorifies diverse bodies that mystic art uses photos from real people to create beautiful images that make all of us more free. Get yours today. Shop fat mystic on Etsy and follow that underscore mystic underscore art on Instagram.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Valerie DiLuggo

Host
Head Shot

Kat Max

Co-host