Chronic illness, supernatural healing, and a lot of f*cking nuance!

Kat and Val venture into uncharted territory while they explore their past experience with religious faith healing and living with chronic illness. Bantering while they explore being open to supernatural healing and recognizing the complexities of healthism and ableism in “spiritual” spaces. Our hosts share vulnerable stories about their own bodies and how each of their diagnosis’ have impacted their lives. Listen to the good, the bad, the ugly, and the doggedly hopeful conversation that is sure to make you laugh, make you think, and challenge beliefs that may not be serving us. 

*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Transcript

Val: 0:05

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat: 0:33

Good

Val: 0:34

morning.

Kat: 0:34

Good morning. Yeah.

Val: 0:36

What'd you just say

Kat: 0:37

I said we should sing for the people vow.

Val: 0:41

shit. I just love, I have so many humans in my life that are like, people are just waiting for me to just dazzle them with my talents and my presence. I love

Kat: 0:51

It's accurate your talent and your presence is so

Val: 0:54

accurate. I'm talking about you though.

Kat: 0:56

well, yeah. Yeah, it's true.

Val: 1:00

we should dazzle the people cat. Oh my

Kat: 1:02

oh my God. I was at a pool party yesterday and someone said the word kaleidoscope and I wrote the most. Incredible erotic piece of poetry.

Val: 1:10

about aScope what the

Kat: 1:13

no, no, it was just a word in it. It was just a word in it. And I was like, oh my God, anyway. And so I was like, you wanna hear a poem? I wrote. And they're like, yes, fuck. And so I was like reading it aloud to them. I was very proud of myself, but that's really. funny. I don't think of myself as always being like, oh, let me delight you with my presence. But I am like that. I I

Val: 1:31

I, so many of cats sentences start with, I really don't consider myself this type of person, but once in a while I am I think more than once in a while, cat, sorry to

Kat: 1:44

guys don't know how much, how many hours a day I'm like in my room, napping, you know, like that's why, like I have the more fuller picture. Ah, yeah

Val: 1:52

I see. I

Kat: 1:53

see. in social situations, it's very different.

Val: 1:55

when you come out, you're like, look, I have all this

Kat: 1:58

to give. Yes. Yes. That's

Val: 1:59

hilarious I really want this to go in our book of things that like cat wrote an erotic piece of poetry off of the word kaleidoscope. That was

Kat: 2:09

the name of the poem. A kaleidoscope of pleasure was the line. It's

Val: 2:12

The kaleidoscope

Kat: 2:13

a beautiful imagery, right? It's hot.

Val: 2:16

I, I dunno. That's like weird body parts kind of coming and going I don't know. Okay. Calling

Kat: 2:22

my imagery

Val: 2:23

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You're right. You're right. I'm an asshole. Thank you. Am I the asshole? Thank you, Reddit. You're right. I don't wanna silly your beautiful piece of artwork before I even heard about it. Speaking of erotica, I, just got back from San Diego. We've been reunited. It feels so good. And I was like, I only forgot one thing. It's my strap on ice pack.

Kat: 2:46

I was like, what's happening? What's happening? Oh, there you go. It's a nice pack. Okay. Val she's not a prude anymore. Everybody.

Val: 2:53

friends were also like, oh, I saw strap on, but that was just like naturally how I was describing to my pickle ball friends that I have this, it's an ice pack. Like it's like a belt you wear, you could put it on your back, strap it on your knee. But I called it the strap on ice pack. everyone was like, Ooh, all the eyes got big on the pickle ball court. It was great. I do love a little tease once in a while.

Kat: 3:19

Yeah, you do. Are you kidding me? Roundup Oh God. It's

Val: 3:23

that was so great. So we're reunited again. I went down to San Diego again, see how my husband refi's twin one of my best friends. And I gotta tell ya we did like a night or two of babysitting again. Yeah. And we lost a kid right off the bat

Kat: 3:41

But it's not a baby kid. It's like a 10 year old kid. That's okay. That's not so bad. That's not so bad you

Val: 3:47

tell me it's okay. It's okay. At that age, they're fine

Kat: 3:50

They know phone numbers. It's all right.

Val: 3:52

and the parents had just gone to the airport and more like thanks again. See you in like two days and I'm like, you guys almost got recalled. Okay. we thought he was taken. This is where you could tell we're substitutes. But he was returned back with a strict warning, the older brother, you need to text us. If, if you take the younger

Kat: 4:10

even have a phone. He has a phone. It's fine. Yeah, no, I know that. That's scary though. I'm sure

Val: 4:15

it, it was,

Kat: 4:16

I don't mean to make too

Val: 4:17

it was a little scary. And then I did have, of course, because why not? There was a pickle ball tournament happening, like a. Gigantic one right down the street, walking distance from my friend's house. So I'm like I have to play. So I schemed and I got my, pickleball partner

Kat: 4:33

That's awesome

Val: 4:34

and we won bronze. We got a little more

Kat: 4:37

congratulations great. Still

Val: 4:38

So still pickleball

Kat: 4:39

champion.

Val: 4:41

so that was great to have a little cheering section, but as my, pickle ball partner was showing up from the airplane. Rafi, my husband, Slashed his foot on a segue, a runaway segue ran up his leg, sliced it open. It was like, imagine a puppet. Imagine Burton

Kat: 4:58

no I don't want to imagine this

Val: 5:02

So I'm finishing up my therapy sessions in the corner of my eye in the window, I can see Murphys going up and down the driveway. On a segue and I'm like, dude,

Kat: 5:13

dude, he's such a big kid. Oh,

Val: 5:15

and then I come out and then the older kid is like TIAL uncle or feet needs stitches.

Kat: 5:20

What are you talking

Val: 5:20

are you talking about? And he is like, yeah, there's her feet on the couch

Kat: 5:24

Oh no,

Val: 5:25

up. And I'm like, what happened? Like, I don't know. And then it was just fascinating that my little nephew, he had already like, Neopore it and like bandaged it and then wrapped it. And then, oh, well that's gonna hurt. Like, you probably need some meds. And he's like, Teva. I already gave him some ibuprofen. I know like such great

Kat: 5:43

That's awesome

Val: 5:44

know but then he was really cramp. Style that day. My because my partner was supposed to come. We were supposed to grab some lunch, go get some practice in cuz I haven't played with her in weeks. so we're like, okay, fine. my pickleball partner is a grown adult. And so she came in and was like, yes, you need to get So we dropped him off at the closest

Kat: 6:06

God, you dropped him off. Yes.

Val: 6:08

yes. We had to go get lunch. We dropped him off at like the minute clinic, whatever Hopping along had to feed the children yet. We got lunch and then he was finally done and he's texted me, send one of the boys to hold my hand. I don't wanna get stitches. He's never had stitches in his life. I'm like, which one do you want me to send the older or the younger? And so he finally was done and we brought him home but then Now, you know, my husband does have ADHD and you know, this hyperfocus kind of makes a lot of our life about him.

Kat: 6:41

sure, sure, sure.

Val: 6:42

that's been my work. You and I have talked about that. That's been my work setting strong boundaries with him. And I mean, I feel like a total asshole because he cut his foot open. Right.

Kat: 6:51

right. But you had shit going

Val: 6:53

I had shit going on.

Kat: 6:55

and you guys are in charge of these two boys. It's a lot. It was very inconvenient. If you were fi. To injure yourself in a fucking segue

Val: 7:03

not the right timing, wear shoes. He was in his sandals. Like any good Brazilian

Kat: 7:08

Oh

Val: 7:08

Yeah, so on Sunday, we had tickets to this concert and a reservations for dinner. So I had to be a pickleball champion, go wash my hair. Cause it was very sweaty. And then Ravi's like, well, you know, I need a shower too. Now, granted, I gave him a sponge bath the day before. He is so excited about that. Cause he just wants all the attention and all the babying. He wants to be a baby again. Yeah, I know. I

Kat: 7:33

I know.

Val: 7:35

He's like, no, no, I need, I need a shower. And I was so proud of myself that I'm like, look, I can't go to a nice dinner and a concert with, Sweaty hair

Kat: 7:43

at you advocating for your own needs. I

Val: 7:45

you advocating for your own needs. I know it's hard sometimes. And good for AFE. If you listen to the earlier episodes he's doing just enough. Yeah. 80 20 around

Kat: 7:52

him around and

Val: 7:53

keep him around. And so he is like, no, no, it's okay, babe. I understand you go take care of your stuff. Bob, I'm just gonna take a shower. I'm like, how are you not gonna be able to take a shower without my help? He's like, don't worry about me. I'm like, all right. So I go about my business and we should post the picture because

Kat: 8:07

I really want

Val: 8:08

He's laying in the bathtub at a very awkward angle. with his,

Kat: 8:13

foot

Val: 8:14

with his.

Kat: 8:14

dangling his foot dangling.

Val: 8:15

foot's dangling. I think I said it to you. And I'm like, tell me how you're not gonna need my help, but to get out of this position, did he,

Kat: 8:22

Did he, did he need help? Of course he

Val: 8:26

course he did cat. And of course I helped him. Oh, and then he had to get on a, plane to Amster them. Oh my God. Like two days later

Kat: 8:34

work stuff while

Val: 8:35

work. Yeah. He, they had a ton of meetings, like all over Europe and he had to go

Kat: 8:40

oh God, bye buddy

Val: 8:41

Is it wrong? When I was like, okay. Someone else's problem for a minute. I know I'm terrible. I'm terrible. But you guys don't

Kat: 8:50

understand. You not

Val: 8:52

You do not understand the high maintenance I think I might have said this before. One of the, one of the guys at pickle ball was like RAI got injured again and he's like, wow, RAI gets hurt really easily. And I was like, look, he's really nice to look at, but he's very fragile. Oh cat Good and then I stayed an extra week.

Kat: 9:16

Yes you did. And I was, I was okay with. That's just, I know,

Val: 9:20

that's just about how she handled the folks I knew, but she's taught me to center yourself. So she has to be okay with it. Yeah. They were like, why? Well, you can, like, you can work from here. Why go home to an empty house? I can't really argue with

Kat: 9:34

that. Right Absolutely.

Val: 9:35

So here we are.

Kat: 9:36

They have a pool.

Val: 9:37

Yeah, Well I did a little, healing in the hot tub.

Kat: 9:40

Ooh. Yeah.

Val: 9:41

hot tub. Me and my amiga We haven't done that in a long time. Yeah, the healing flowed. It was beautiful.

Kat: 9:48

love that. It

Val: 9:49

beautiful.

Kat: 9:50

I love that. Like, relationships can be like so safe and so intimate that like, the stars just sort of magically align and Oh, I can tell this is like a big moment. We're together and we're processing through some big stuff. And like healing happens. You know, we just had an episode about how we need one another and like, transformation and like shifts can happen. And I just love that. I all the stars align for that to happen.

Val: 10:11

Thank you. And it happened a couple months ago with another friend, just talking to me on the phone. And I was like, wait, why can I just ask a question? And then it was. Oh, I feel it like mm-hmm

Kat: 10:22

Mm-hmm

Val: 10:22

something's ripping open and those moments, I do feel like a vessel. This is an ordained healing moment. Like, let it just happen.

Kat: 10:29

Oh, that's so beautiful.

Val: 10:31

Therapy's funny, right? to be a stranger. a caring, safe stranger,

Kat: 10:35

Yeah. Right.

Val: 10:36

but then also it feels good obviously I'm not doing therapy with them, but like these healing moments that

Kat: 10:41

Happen Yeah

Val: 10:43

be able to do it for the people you love is of course

Kat: 10:45

I have moments like that with my, humans that I'm close with too, it's the overflow of being, a healer in the world, you know? Yeah. And like this neat convergence of all of the things we've learned along the way, like all your knowledge about therapy and whatnot, but also the spiritual right to like, feel the energy and be like, oh, this person is ready for their breakthrough or oh, I need to ask this question. I just. Push on this one little spot. Cause I think it's ready to give. Oh, that's beautiful. I'm getting chills. Just talking

Val: 11:11

about, I know. It's so good.

Kat: 11:12

I like that we can mix all the things, I talk about my own spiritual journey being quite eclectic, you know? Yeah. But there is a lot of actual knowledge in there too, all of my knowledge of therapy and injustice stuff. There's. Much complexity that goes into being a human being in the

Val: 11:27

Oh how do any of us get get by

Kat: 11:30

I know, I know somehow with the help of our friends,

Val: 11:34

do. Aw, we do with the help of our friends.

Kat: 11:38

Exactly. Yeah. yeah

Val: 11:41

to commercial before we get today's topic?

Kat: 11:43

we have a fun topic for you all. No, I mean, them saying a little cheeky we're gonna talk about our personal experiences living with chronic illnesses and how it's shaped us and impacted our life. And

Val: 11:54

and I will say if you do not have a chronic illness, I mean, we're a fun ride anyway.

Kat: 12:00

yeah. We're

Val: 12:02

I said, Jeff, that was a

Kat: 12:03

was, I know, I know said Joe, I slim dunked

Val: 12:05

that's right That's right. I bet you know, someone yeah. That suffers from something that's chronic yeah. And affects their life. And I think that. Whew. It's just a different animal. So I think you could also benefit from hearing a little bit about that too, for the people you in your life

Kat: 12:21

as well? Absolutely. We'll be right back, everybody.

Val: 12:24

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Kat: 12:42

It's like you're a

Val: 12:42

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Kat: 12:54

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Val: 13:20

All right. We're back. Thanks for listening to our commercials. Please support us. Yeah, please pass our info around other people.

Kat: 13:31

looked at some statistics. Will you just tell us the good news?

Val: 13:35

Well, yeah, I mean it says nearly half of Americans have some sort of chronic illness. And 96% of the chronic illnesses are invisible illnesses.

Kat: 13:47

That is such a huge fucking number.

Val: 13:49

And, you know, if you listen to our jingle, that's one of our shared sort of experiences is that we both have chronic illness and we've talked a lot over the years about the ways in which it has affected our lives. And how do humans get along in this world by finding others to commiserate and say, yeah, me

Kat: 14:06

right Yeah. And validate your experiences and

Val: 14:09

I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which I, sometimes I feel like one doctor told me it's kind of a catchall they had to make sure it wasn't lupus, that wasn't a brain tumor. You know, some other things and that maybe a lot of people who are diagnosed with it. There's lots of different things in there that maybe are, are different. but I mean, I was diagnosed when I was in college. I just had chronic headaches and fatigue. And I remember telling my parents that we grew up in a household where like there was no money to go to the doctor

Kat: 14:39

mm-hmm

Val: 14:39

So you had to be really sick to go to the doctor. And I was like, look, if, if after the summer these headaches, aren't better. I have to go. And then yeah, in college, back then, it was like, I a rheumatologist And went through that process. Mm-hmm but there was a point where I thought I might have to drop outta college or take a

Kat: 14:57

Oh

Val: 14:57

cuz I couldn't focus on writing papers And before that I was, I, I probably was running a little high the engine was running a little high. I was, you know, burning the candle at both ends and then it was wow. I, I'd never feel good. And So, that's been most of my life, to be living with that. And it's, one of the ones that is an invisible illness. So I even had a friend joke, like I did take one medical leave once and they were like, oh, it's really great to have a, illness that's invisible and doesn't really affect you, but you get time off. And he was saying it in a joking way. Yeah. Well, no, it's not fun. Actually. Well's sound

Kat: 15:37

I know wasn't stuff. Fun to not feel good for like large portions of your

Val: 15:42

and like visible illnesses. Aren't fun either. None of it is

Kat: 15:47

fun,

Val: 15:47

but it is this weird dissonance. We've been talking a lot about dissonance because right. I show up to the pickleball court and like, I'm carrying. The toll it takes on my body or how much is gonna hurt me the next day or how I'm preparing my strap on ice pack. and then it's weird that like, it's not that you really want know, but then it feels dissonant. Yeah. That nobody knows.

Kat: 16:11

Right.

Val: 16:11

How much extra it takes you. Yeah. But then we've been told in our culture, like yeah, no bootstrap it and all that stuff. Right. Oh, the pickle ball tournament, helping RFI out of the shower, dinner a concert.

Kat: 16:24

That's a lot. It makes me tired. Sometimes you tell me about you do on vacation

Val: 16:29

and then you know, there was a point and this used to happened to me a lot. When I was younger, so here, here's the biggest thing, friends. If you have someone in your life who has a chronic illness and they say, they're tired, please. Don't say yame Because, and we need a new word because it's not the same tired.

Kat: 16:45

No.

Val: 16:46

it's this all encompassing draining of your, energy, your life force.

Kat: 16:52

what it feels like

Val: 16:53

it feels like. It's like, Ooh. And you just fall into a slump. So when I was younger, I did this a lot. I would, I would lay on the floor no matter where I was, because it was like battery over, like your phone is dead.

Kat: 17:05

Yeah.

Val: 17:05

And I would lay on the floor in like sometimes in gross places. So that was the first time in a very long time. I've gotten better at pacing myself. We were at a concert hall and some people left and I looked at the row behind us. I was like, I could lay on that floor cuz my whole body then also gets antsy and restless like restless leg syndrome. And so then we got home and we're trying to like hang out and then, and P is like having to get ready for the next morning to go on this trip. Right. And he needed a banded shade and like, sorry guys. I I'm like I've hit a wall. I have to go sleep right now. And I'm like, thank you so much. Last night I just hit a wall and my body gave out and they were like, well, all of our bodies did. Well, but I mean, I was like gonna sleep on the floor. in the concert you can't explain

Kat: 17:50

qualify that and you feel, like you're bad, right

Val: 17:53

oh, well you were tired. You went to bed. I'm like, no, you don't understand. Like, I, I couldn't exist anymore. It hurt to be awake.

Kat: 17:59

Yes. Oh, and for me what happens? it's not always the awake part. It's like, I need my head to be laying down immediately. Like, there's something about like, The amount of fatigue that I experience. if I'm upright for too long, I just am like desperate to be laying down again. It's like, my head needs to be parallel to the earth instead of

Val: 18:17

yeah.

Kat: 18:18

Yeah. And then, so my story is, I didn't know that I had a chronic illness my whole life, and I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD either. And so I spent most of my late teens and twenties, kind of. Hyper focused on like all of my masking skills mm-hmm right. How to be good in the worldview. We were a part of. And and also you. I was good at it. Like, I was good at being a pastor. Right. But it was very relational driven and then I would hit a wall too. And it would be funny, like by the time I was the campus pastor, I was like hanging out with all my students who were doing an event or something. It started to be like this funny joke where all the sudden I would just get up whatever I was doing. We were all hanging out together doing some activity and it'd be late enough. I'd. I'm out and I just would leave. And I started feeling this funny joke over and thought it was so funny, but it was an abrupt hit a wall. And then there's no option. You can't linger

Val: 19:07

no. I did the same thing too, which I found out is called an Irish goodbye. I, I didn't know. And I'm part Irish but they, we would have all the worship team at our house. And I didn't like saying goodbye cause everyone's like, no,

Kat: 19:19

Right It's a whole big

Val: 19:20

So I would just sneak away. And so they would tease me like, oh, Val, just like abandon us again.

Kat: 19:25

I would just wave by, by him out. I'm gonna go. Yeah, so I had had two children and I was experiencing some postpartum depression is what I thought. And so I was at the doctor trying to get treated with that. And then another little while goes by, and I I'm listening to an NPR piece and someone's discussing Chronic illness called lip edema. And that's the name of what I have. And so mine is both invisible and visible in that it's considered a fat disorder. And so there are like disease to fat cells that are all over my body that are actually kind of painful and they continue to accumulate and it's not related to caloric intake or daily movement. And so it's such a strange experience to be like human beings can witness me out in the world. See a large bodied person. And and then there's the, the stigma that comes along with just living in a fat body. Right. But then also then the idea that, oh, I'm lazy, right. Was just something, it was such a battle. Right Wow. And I don't live in that space anymore. Like it was, helpful in some ways to have the diagnosis, but in other ways I was like, Ooh, I didn't really want that to be part of my identity. You know, I liked knowing that my body was strong. So my body's like, you have heard you say it too, like your body's both strong and weak, right? Like physically I can lift heavy things, but my stamina on my energy level, it's like your feet fall out from underneath you sometimes. Right. That's fascinating to live in that constant tension. Right.

Val: 20:52

right? It is. I think there's a lot of grief, you and I have talked about the grief of living with a chronic illness and it's the diminished capacity. It's cuz it's also and like, well I just can't do what I used to. And then there's so much of the internal dialogue and, well, could I, could I press myself? What's the sweet spot. It's this it invisible fight, and, then the other is. What's wrong with me and could I, will this work, the new thing and people, so like, makes me tired about, well, well, meaning people who are like, have you tried this? Have you tried that? And being hypervigilant about your body and the cues and the new pains? Oh my gosh. I, I mean, I had COVID 700 times in the last two and a half years in my mind,

Kat: 21:43

oh, my body hurts. Is this COVID is this chronic

Val: 21:45

illness It takes up so much dialogue again for

Kat: 21:47

myself You didn't really have COVID at any times. No. Yeah

Val: 21:50

have it any times. I think I might have once or twice for real, for real, like in the early days. But again, it could have been chronic illness. But this hypervigilance on all your symptoms and having to just kind of. Shut that off when it's not helpful.

Kat: 22:05

I noticed that I was getting real fatigued. This is like a few years ago now that I was like, I can't the hyper focus you're talking about. I can't do it anymore. I the mental gymnastics of trying to fit the puzzle together. Right. I can't solve the puzzle. And then that's where I started really embracing like again, the radical acceptance. Yeah. Right. Of like, okay, well, this is my reality. That's the only way to get through the day is to lay down enough. And then I started just organizing my life in a way that I could do that, you know, and it wasn. Clean. It was messy. It was messy to get to that part. You know what I mean? But I didn't have any other option in my mind cuz I just, you've referenced it too with the yo-yo dieting thing. You're like, I can't do this anymore. I gotta get off this fucking ride. And that's how it felt for me trying to solve the puzzle of what can I do? How can. Adjust something. So I'll finally feel better again. And I think what we're dealing with is the, belief that's perpetuated out there, that there is some magic. formula Right And that's what we wanna believe, but I don't think it's a belief that serves me. And so what serves me more is like, this is the reality I live with and I gotta find a way to make peace with it. And even just now you're talking about like the fight and I'm like, I don't like any language about fight or war or none of that feels good in my body. And so I'm like, I just have to make peace with this. And so softness is my way of coping

Val: 23:20

all

Kat: 23:20

the things. And I don't do shit and I miss out on stuff and I like gave up on FOMO. I don't have FOMO anymore because I. I do shit that I wanna do, and it's a lot less than I used to do. And that's all I can do. You know, most of my favorite things that I do are pool related, you know what I mean? like, and that's really, really fun for me. It's a real high like win, right? But my same group of friends that had the fun pool party with me went to an awesome fun party in San Francisco during pride weekend and partied at a club for hours. And I didn't go, This is doesn't fit, doesn't work.

Val: 23:55

Do you still feel grief over that? A sadness?

Kat: 23:58

I mean a little bit, but it kind of passes through sometimes it does sound fun and if there's something I really, really want to do, I can find a way to scale it back.

Val: 24:06

And or you know, that you're gonna pay for it, or that your body's gonna be exhausted the

Kat: 24:11

day. It just won't be fun. Like, the idea is fun, if I'm fatigued and too exhausted, there's no place to lay down. There's no place to lay down at a nightclub. You know what

Val: 24:19

oh, I'll find it. no, you're right. That's gross. No,

Kat: 24:24

Yeah, So you

Val: 24:24

yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah So,

Kat: 24:26

know, but that doesn't mean that like, you know, you've had amazing parties here at your home. It's the same. Delight and fun. And it's a smaller group of people and there's couches at your house, you know what I mean? And so like, I can organize something that I, it will scratch that itch for me. Yeah. And so that's how I've made peace with the fact that my, my life is just so much different, you know? When you have a chronic illness, I think that again, it's we had that grief episode that we talked about. Like there's a lot of stages of grief and processing how to Live Right. And for me, I was like, I gotta make peace. cause I couldn't, fight it. And in, some chronic illness circles, people are talking about fighting and they do it with cancer too. Like you fight, fight, fight. And I'm like, I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna fight on the inside of my fucking body.

Val: 25:10

You know, I, I felt like that with Because there's a lot of that language In sort of the infertility as well. Right. That you're gonna fight as hard as you can, or you'll endure anything.

Kat: 25:23

I'm not gonna endure anything. It's hard. Oh my God. My kids they're 10 and 12. And they sometimes get on these kicks about like, you know, watching shit on YouTube. It's like zombie apocalypse or throw through. So like, they're like, mom, what would you do if this happened? You know, like

Val: 25:38

or something? Yeah.

Kat: 25:38

that. I was like, I would die. I would like, first to go I'm not gonna run these fuckers.

Val: 25:45

and actually it sounds kind good. Right? Cuz we watched the walking dead. It's a terrible existence and it's like 12 seasons in maybe a early zombie death. Would've

Kat: 25:55

been. I have all these like warm feelings about what happens on the other side of this life. So I'm like, yeah. I mean, cut to the end. Thank you. Yes. You know? Yeah. So

Val: 26:04

yeah. Well, getting to that place of peace, I think I had to silence or not buy into some of the healthism. at least in our, culture, again, it goes back to capitalism too, like that, your health is your responsibility. It's very individual that you have total control over your

Kat: 26:23

which isn't true

Val: 26:23

is not true. It's a lie. If you just try hard enough, you can heal yourself, you can cure it. I, I had a doctor tell me that humans should not eat apples.

Kat: 26:33

so fuck you, doctor. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck Face fart. Face, fuck. Face.

Val: 26:40

started calling him Dr. Fruits, because he was like, only horses should be eat apples. I'm like, fuck you. Yeah. I fired him.

Kat: 26:47

Well, that's the other thing, there's this interesting overlap too. Right? So in some of these, chronic illness communities, people are trying to grab anything they can to sort of heal themselves and feel better. Right. We all would like to feel better. So people wanna really control and hyper control their food in order to feel better. I understand the launch behind it. It does not feel good in my body. Yeah. It feels like fear

Val: 27:08

Well and it feels like something you can do, right. if there's something I can do, let me try it. And maybe some of this nervous energy or the grief, and look, if apples don't make you feel good. I'm not saying, fuck you to, you just don't eat apples. It's

Kat: 27:21

OK. Yeah,

Val: 27:22

but you know, where's room for everything. But, again, like we talked about at the beginning, it's putting all the blame on the individual. When, it's so much more complex than that DNA, your environment, your trauma, have you heard of the ACEs score? The adverse childhood effects? ACEs is the acronym for adverse childhood experiences scale,

Kat: 27:45

Right. And if you have those high numbers, it just, that's a lot of trauma that you carry into your life.

Val: 27:49

Yeah, they just started to study, why are these certain people I having such poor health outcomes. And they're linking it back to trauma.

Kat: 27:57

Of course. Yes of course. That's when I, like, I downshift, I'm like, I'm gonna heal everything on the inside and my emotions. I, yeah. And so, and again, but not in like a RVD way, but in a way of I'm gonna feel all my feelings I'm gonna be present with, what's showing up for me. I'm not gonna fight. you know what I mean? Enjoy love and softness. And I mean, that's my present strategy.

Val: 28:16

Well, look now we're gonna Wade into some muddy territory. We're ready for

Kat: 28:21

it. I'm ready. Are you ready?

Val: 28:22

I'm ready. You can see it on my

Kat: 28:24

face.

Val: 28:25

But I remember even in the faith community, people telling me like more of like the, Ooh, the spiritual people, like. Well, do you wanna get rid of this? You're not healed because you don't wanna be. And that just felt I actually think now it's abusive to tell

Kat: 28:41

that oh yeah, yeah.

Val: 28:43

And so we have to be careful of what language you use that might Teeter on that. not meaning to, and I'm like, well, I don't understand. Like, I actually feel this physical pain.

Kat: 28:52

Right.

Val: 28:52

and then even in, all the woo woo or wellness circles, it's like, you can heal. Yeah. And it's tricky because if we're nervous. Yeah. If we have a test, we get, sometimes people get a stomach ache or if you're stressed, right. You get a headache. And so we know that there is more of a mind, body connection than we, want Tono acknowledge.

Kat: 29:19

can we, heal? Yeah, I think this is a profound question to move around because again, yeah. Our background includes a lot of faith healing, right. And then some of my spiritual exploration today includes circles where people are saying shit like, you are completely creating your own reality. Right. Mm-hmm and so I hold all that loosely. Right. And yet I want to be open to the idea that we could heal our bodies. And that feels scary to say out loud sometimes because I don't want to be approaching my curiosity around healing. With an attitude of ableism. This is really important to me. So ableism is this thing in our culture, just like the other isms where we demote someone's human dignity because of what they're able to do or not able to do. That's the bottom line. I identify as disabled because I have limited mobility at this point. And I can't stand or walk very long without pain. I, I would love it if I wasn't in pain. Sure. Right. And so what kind of kindness is, can I offer my body? So my body's not in such an activated state or so there's less inflammation in my body. you know, and again, I, think because I, don't want to give back into like restrictive eating or these other sort of things, and I'm a little disillusioned with traditional medicine, are my options? There's the radical acceptance of this is my reality. And also if there is. Room for healing. I'd like to invite that, but my dignity as a human being in the world, my value, none of that is diminished because I don't walk very far. Right, right. So it's a very nuanced kind of space to be in, but I, I really want to be open to whatever. Good and beautiful thing exists for us without also saying, oh, this is for everybody. And you just need to do a, B and C like no fucking

Val: 31:10

no gurus. You already established that. No gurus Well, and I think whenever we say this is me, I don't wanna be here. We have to think of the impact for the people that are still there. Right. So I sent you this book with a was a picture of a person in a wheelchair with all these like flowers around it. And it said, I think it said like, I'm not your fucking prayer request

Kat: 31:29

or something that. yeah

Val: 31:31

And I just, of course I didn't read the book yet, but I was like, oh right. Or even if someone. I don't wanna be fat anymore. Mm-hmm like, you've said I don't want to not, not be fat. Yeah. whenever we're identifying with a group and then saying like, I wish to someone be out of that. I think that that is where some of the hurt comes in. Totally right. With ableism or if, I don't know, I'm imagining maybe this person's also saying that's all the church sees me as is well, we gotta get this person healed. Or imagine if you have like diagnosis that the treatment, isn't going to take it away. You're living in reality of like, this is what I

Kat: 32:04

Right And it's interesting. So the idea of like quality of life, that concept is sort of coming to mind versus like dignity, human dignity. Right. And so if we can interact with all human beings and say, we all have equal human dignity and then also some of the things that make my quality of life challenging are just because we live in systems. keep me marginalized, keep me and my body marginalized. Cuz most public places don't have seating that works for me. Right. And that's like a system that's systemic problems that are making my quality of life smaller. Right. Yeah. Whereas

Val: 32:39

do you know that the New York city subway system yeah. Has like so few. Elevators. cause it's so old and they won't put the money in. So you see like women carrying babies in a stroller, down six flights of stairs into the subway. It's an atrocity. Very few. Yeah. To get into the New York city subway station. Yeah. Do better.

Kat: 32:59

do better. Yeah. again, because. So we don't care about women and children in our culture. and we don't care about people that have any other, you know, like needs. Right. And so we, we don't live in a culture that centers anyone's needs really? No, right? we've taken a very narrow slice of humanity and says, this is the bar. This is how you need to fit in. And when you don't, then you have to be like fucking creative. Yeah. You know, and again, I think the heart of it for me is I don't feel like my value. as a person is related to the bodyline habit or how much physical ability I have in any, day or even how much productivity I have. That was a lot of work. That was a lot of work to separate my value, my dignity from productivity, from ableism and from healthism. Right. a lot of spiritual practices have gone into me being at the place that I am now. But in this place of being like, I completely accept who I am. I'm also wanting to say, Hey body, would you like to heal? Could we be in less pain? Is there something that needs to be, looked at or addressed or like, is it still old trauma? Is it, this, is it that? And the answer might be no, I don't know what the answer is. I just know that I wanna position myself where I'm open to And that feels a little tender. It feels like a little kind of scary to say out loud

Val: 34:19

Going back to the systems that we live in, I quit my full-time job and thankfully, you know, we had the privilege, the margin for me to take some time off. I really got scared. What if I can't provide for myself anymore? And our society is not good. Social security disability it's below poverty level

Kat: 34:37

no, I looked into it too. It's it? It was incredibly it's demoralizing.

Val: 34:43

So you can't that's the healthism so there's no margin to be like, oh my body, right. My body has has this thing now I need, to live as well. But no, we feel like everyone has to work so hard, with no grace in there. So there is just like such pressure.

Kat: 34:59

right?

Val: 35:01

But I do wonder, is this from emotional pain. Can we heal it in some way? Maybe.

Kat: 35:10

I know where we're kind of making these faces. You guys can't see us. We're making these faces where we're like, I don't know. Maybe. And it's interesting that like, you know, I would say Val, that a lot of the stuff that you and I have talked about on the podcast has been things that we're pretty confident about, right? Like, we've like, oh, I learned this. I know that's like, what have you learned? Like, I think this is a, this is a topic where we're actually we're. We're actively in real time, exploring with you all our listeners we're exploring and sort of being willing to push something against the edges of what we know for sure. I wanna be open to this. Yeah. And I don't wanna live in a closed kind of way and we're continuing to grow. Right? Like we learn new things. I don't wanna be stagnant in.

Val: 35:48

Yeah. I think, cuz it's tricky too that cuz I think if we're saying like, you can heal this, then it's almost like this automatic blame if you're still

Kat: 35:57

pain Right. Right. Yeah. again, we definitely don't wanna be perpetuating that idea. No. But also the, whole idea of like, Everyone's journey is completely different and unique to themselves. You know, obviously in the whole larger, like chronic illness community, it feels nice to be validated oh, I see you, I understand what you say to me, Val, when you're like, I'm real tired. Right. That makes sense to me. I know that feels like, whereas someone who doesn't have those might not be able to relate the same way and yet, you know, Your story is different from someone else with fibromyalgia mm-hmm and then any other person that might be listening that has their own journey with their body and whatever, chronic pain or chronic illness they might have. And so there's dance again, the push pull of like the individual and then your, your personal pursuit towards dignity, right? Yeah. And then the like curiosity of like, yes, I'm allowed to exist as I am. Now. I'd like to be open and curious to see what else is available to me.

Val: 36:51

Well, and even some of the natural byproducts of the healing. Yeah. Right. Or divesting from certain things. I have a lot less anxiety. Mm. Right. Since sort of divesting from a lot of the rules of the Bible, honestly, like so much anxiety

Kat: 37:07

Right Right. Yeah

Val: 37:08

Getting healed from the trauma from that. Right. I feel such a lightness. Right, right. So I used to have my neck. I would get, I'd try to get massages as often as I could just really terrible. And I noticed that after I left my full-time job and now I have my own practice, but after I got outta some of those terrible

Kat: 37:39

right

Val: 37:39

one day, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have that pain anymore. I got different pain, but I don't have that pain anymore. So there's people who are experts in a lot of this stuff, so maybe we're gonna, who knows, maybe we're gonna seek some of them out. Maybe we're gonna try some things and report back to you on the podcast about

Kat: 37:58

Totally Like, spiritual modalities interest me so much. Reiki work. We've sort of referenced that before. And when I think about Reiki and the idea of, them moving around this energy, it really reminds me of some of the, the stuff that you and I experienced in charismatic Christian circles. I wanna carefully hold space for that being real. You know what I mean? You've heard me reference the no guru things. I don't believe that we can create a formula and. Put it on everyone because, the amount of shame that shows up You know? And so that's why I think it needs to be very individualistic and led by the individual. That has to be your decision from a place of where are you feeling led? What are you feeling drawn towards? What are you curious about? And if it's from a place of kindness and compassion versus that other energy that you and I both remember valid, like spinning furious energy of trying to solve the puzzle, it's an anxious energy. Yeah. Versus curious, open energy, right?

Val: 38:51

It, it does seem hypervigilant. It does. And that adds fuel to the fire also that it's our fault. You know, come down if you want prayer for healing. And if it didn't happen, there still was this undercurrent of you must not have had enough faith. Because the Bible

Kat: 39:06

that's such a mind. Fuck. I'm so sorry. That happened. That happened to me too. Val. I'm sorry that that happened.

Val: 39:11

sorry. That happened to you

Kat: 39:12

And I'd say that spiritual abuse that's psychologically really damaging, right? Yeah. I mean, you are the, one of the most determined, like faith-filled people I know. Right. So to be like, you didn't do enough. You're not enough. That's what that's saying. Yeah. And, and honestly, listeners, we would never, ever say that you are enough. You are enough and I'm enough in the body and habit right now in my current level of ability, I am enough good for me. And if I could feel better. Cool. right. Yes. Cool. Like bonus, as opposed to my value is dictated on the fact that I get better. Fuck all that. That's bullshit. My value is not dictated on anything. I I'm valuable. I have dignity. I have beautiful things to offer the world right now in this present day of being. And also if I feel better, some. Bonus

Val: 40:02

bonus bonus bonus. I'm so glad I have you on this journey, cat. Thank you. And again, back to the me artists who need to get saved. I remember the first time I saw online that someone talked about. Taking a shower was

Kat: 40:19

Oh my

Val: 40:19

with a chronic illness. I was just mad at myself why is this so difficult? It's like just taking a shower. You wanna nap after it's so exhausting. Thankfully, I don't feel that as much anymore, but there were periods of time where, where I did so just that. Yeah, me too, that, oh, I'm not alone. Oh, this is normal for people who have what I have

Kat: 40:41

Valerie. I put a shower chair in my shower. And one day I just felt really strongly, like I piece about it. Mm-hmm there's some nice natural light in my bathroom. and I did, I'm gonna post it in our Instagram, but like, it's actually, it's a picture of me in a, you know, very fat body sitting, holding the shower head. Right. But I felt so much shame around that, that very specific thing. And again, that's. when I think about healing, some of it is just like the more free I am from anything that feels like shame, then I'm more whole, you know, mm-hmm And so I did, I made this piece. I didn't even post it for a long time on my art page because it felt very tender. This shame was really, really high there well also, cuz my body had changed. You know, my condition's progressive. Right. And. I don't have control over that to my knowledge. And so when I finally put it out, I had so much feedback from this particular piece and people also saying, wow, it's so beautiful. What if some of the healing is just, we get to be more and more free from shame, you know? And again, you've heard all of our podcasts, we just reference this a lot, but like we have all grown up in a toxic culture. We've internalized so many messages that are damaging to our psyche and yeah, some of that's gonna show up in our body, our body keeps score. Yeah. And then maybe my physical body doesn't ever change, but like my experience of freedom absolutely has and continues to, I get more and more free daily and that's a cool, fucking beautiful thing.

Val: 42:11

That is beautiful. so we've been talking a lot about what we're learning What's moving around

Kat: 42:19

us.

Val: 42:21

what about what's bringing you pleasure.

Kat: 42:22

Yeah. Okay, so you probably can relate to this, but living with a chronic illness, there is nothing as pleasurable as that moment when your head hits the pillow, it is like you, everything, everything just it's like the most beautiful fucking exhale. Yeah, it really is.

Val: 42:40

After a long day yesterday, I climbed in my bed for the first time. I was like, oh,

Kat: 42:44

Oh shit. And then for me, the other one is always water. Like anytime I can get into a body water, and I notice, like I try to go to a pool pretty regular, because the pleasure of being in the pool means that showering is Right. It's not as hard. Oh. And so that's interesting. Like that's my own little like life hack for myself. I shower kind of infrequently, but if I can get to the pool, I'm showering more. So like floating is so great. It's such a fucking great feeling and like this sensory pleasure of the water, I just love it. It's so good. Mm-hmm what about you?

Val: 43:19

You know this happened a week or two ago, The humans of New York, if you aware of their Instagram, they had a woman. who had grown up. I just feel like it was all the bad

Kat: 43:29

stuff, you know? Yeah.

Val: 43:30

She grew up in like very, very fundamentalist place where women were not valued. She had to like, please her husband. It was everything her husband wanted. And then in this marriage and somehow she got the courage to walk

Kat: 43:44

right right

Val: 43:45

And went to New York city with one of her sons. They have like, you know, millions of followers. So I'm sure maybe some of you have already heard this I just was touched about yes, she got free from that had to start all over again. Had to trust herself, started singing in this pub. God has like a band together and, you know, got this job. It was all the healing, like as a therapist, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Healing with the sons and then I just read that they're hooking up with another person that was on humans of New York in their pub. And she's doing like another residency of her one woman show

Kat: 44:22

Oh, my woman show. Oh my God.

Val: 44:23

one woman show has a wonderful

Kat: 44:27

and wasn't she in her sixties right before she in her sixties, That's the kicker. It's never too late.

Val: 44:33

Ugh. I just like the freedom story there and the hard earned, lessons and rebirth. it just brought me so much pleasure to read her story.

Kat: 44:44

You know what, I just stuff like that is so beautiful. We can get free, everybody Mm-hmm we can get free and sometimes it's not gonna be as dramatic as you have to escape a marriage and a religion and all these other things. But wanna be free Val.

Val: 44:56

Yes. More freedom,

Kat: 44:59

I love you

Val: 45:00

I love you. This was good today.

Kat: 45:03

this was good.

Val: 45:04

Even if we're talking about our illnesses. Fuck. But it's always good being together. See you next time.

Kat: 45:17

Like

Val: 45:18

Yep. Bye. Bye. KA.