3 Questions with Kat & Val

Reframing Resistance

• Season 1 • Episode 19

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. Hello. You're making the

Kat:

funniest face

Val:

I was like, should we do a staring=contest? But that wouldn't be so fun on a podcast.

Kat:

not one of your better instincts.

Val:

let's see how long it takes for either of us to say anything that we, I don't think we would be good at that. I'd wanna talk the I love talking to you. I'm glad you're here. It's a nice day. We should tell the people I was watering. My fiddle leaf fig, which we know are like

Kat:

though. Kind of

Val:

fiddle leaf F

Kat:

It's a fiddle leaf. Oh, cuz the leaf looks like a fiddle. Oh, I see that. Sure.

Val:

I have no idea. I beautiful plan. It

Kat:

well, I'm looking at this beautiful plant and I know that you're proud of yourself that it's still alive, right?

Val:

right. Because like we travel a lot. It is a tree. Yeah. Yeah. And I also say it's the only thing that's, happy that we're gone for a great length of time, because it only wants to be watered like once every two weeks or three weeks

Kat:

Oh,

Val:

something. So I was watering it cuz it's kind of hot today and I have a little sundress on and.

Kat:

was thanking you for the view. Yeah. So I can see you watering it from here. And you were like, we're in this shore dress and you were leaning over and I was like, wow, PS got incredible legs.

Val:

but you're like, Ooh, thanks for the view. So I need to put one more cup of water instead of bending over. I

Kat:

a knee.

Val:

down. So was to not expose myself in a.

Kat:

it, wasn't like I was,

Val:

Well, I dunno. I was like, I dunno how much I'm showing it could just be my calf. I don't know. Or maybe it's like my whole butt. I don't know

Kat:

my God. If it was your whole butt, I would probably look awake. Cause I'd be like, oh, that's probably not, you know, like, That's that seems inappropriate, but like, you know, you're just like showing a little extra leg. I was like, fantastic legs. Wonderful. Look at these fantastic legs today. What good choices you have made like in your ensemble? It's wonderful.

Val:

Oh, that is so funny. And then, your jumpsuit. Yeah. Your wardrobe stuff is happening. You're just like showing me that your, dress is falling down your jumpsuit. So we're just having a good old time over here. It's so funny though. Isn't it? How we mix, deep, emotional transformational topics and a booty shot. I wasn't even a booty shot.

Kat:

Oh, that's so funny. There's some upper thigh action there. What is the back of your thigh called? Yeah. Hamstrings. Congratulations.

Val:

Yeah. Yes. Congratulations.

Kat:

to you. Pick a ball has given you some fantastic hamstring.

Val:

I caught my pickleball, but yep. Oh, KA.

Kat:

cats. Hi. Hi. I'm like really excited. I mean, the lead up for this conversation, I'm telling

Val:

you

Kat:

I am pumped up today. We're gonna talk about reframing

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

Yes. Which is a very cool thing to talk about because in my experience. I feel like most people don't know that when we're resistant to something, it's just information and often very helpful things. And so I want all human beings to sort of like make peace with the fact that we feel resistance to stuff sometimes. And that's totally fine and good. And we can talk to resistance and be like, what are you trying to tell me, motherfucker?

Val:

just like that. Exactly like that. Totally. Yes.

Kat:

Ah, yeah. So today's topic. Yeah. Reframing

Val:

reframing resistance. Yeah.

Kat:

adjusting how we understand resistance. We experience in our own

Val:

body what's our default? How are we experiencing it? Re resistance. We don't like it.

Kat:

Yeah. We try to reject it. I think it falls under the category of like negative emotion. Mm-hmm right. Mm-hmm or we can shame spiral because we feel it like the idea that we just choose to get curious about things that show up for us versus judging what shows up for us. Mm-hmm very different. Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

So resistance, maybe not being just a roadblock or just like a, an, well,

Kat:

Well, that's the other thing. We live in a culture that tells us to like railroad resistance. We might be feeling right. And that's not always

Val:

happening.

Kat:

Right. So it depends on the context. we don't know why any resistance is showing up in your life. Right. Mm-hmm so the context is super important, but yeah, no matter what the context. our resistance is something important for us to recognize and, and, and we recognize it by being in our body. Right. And then for us to like negotiate and like understand and bring some compassion to and say, Hey, what am I learning? Because I feel this resistance, you know, Yeah. Yeah,

Val:

yeah. You know, in therapy school was I about to say that in therapy school? that was kind of one of those Ooh aha moments I had where, you know, where I learned about Seeing resistance as a really, really helpful information. Right. Especially if, if you feel like a client is being resistant to something you're trying to bring up right. Not moralizing or judging that or seeing that as problematic, also seeing that you're not the all knowing all powerful therapists that the person, their body, their minds are like, Nope. And it's so fascinating. So we're seeing resistance is like, Ooh. That's information.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

I've been curious and when someone's Response. Isn't what I thought it was gonna be. Or if I feel some resistance, I'm like, Ooh, tell me more why.

Kat:

And then there usually is yes.

Val:

A really, really valid and important reason why they're feeling resistant about that. And it's like, oh, I wouldn't have known that. I wouldn't have thought of that. But your body is telling you like me. Nope.

Kat:

that's a weird noise. Your body

Val:

is

Kat:

weird noises. I, yeah. when I'm navigating interpersonal relationships, I. Have learned to like notice resistance and then just welcome it. whether it's my own resistance or maybe someone else's, cuz you can kind of feel that energetically too when you're just relating to people. And then suddenly you can feel like a shift and like something that was open is maybe closing and you're like, oh, Hey, let's talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. but without judgment. we spent a lot of time talking last time about rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. so it's really helpful if you reframe how you understand resistance, you don't understand it as rejection. Right. You understand it as you know, information. Yeah. And so then you can just sort of check in about that. Yeah.

Val:

Well, you had a little bit, you wanna talk about your kind of episode about resistance?

Kat:

not really. I'm having some

Val:

are you having some resistance about the re.

Kat:

Okay. Well, okay. So you know, we, you hear it in our intro. You and I both live with chronic

Val:

illness. Mm-hmm

Kat:

and my experience of trying to navigate My own like healing or wellness journey within traditional medicine has been disheartening, you know mainstream medicine. Doesn't really, it's not excelling at trying to like deal with chronic illness, right. Because there's a lot of mystery involved in chronic illness.

Val:

And can I just say too, I know we talked about this on a prior episode, just a little, it's a complex, it's an industrial complex. Yeah. Like we talk about the prison industrial complex and like, it is a capitalistic we don't have socialized medicine. Right. There's a lot of profit and it really is like, you have a problem. We're trying to fix it.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

For really like, right. As cheap as possible, also

Kat:

they can.

Val:

And I know we have amazing friends, people that are out there in the healthcare system that have empathy and are caring, but the system treats you like a problem. Yeah. And if it's not cut and dry, right. Then your problem is a problem to them, right. That they can't cure for you.

Kat:

Yeah. Or they just are like, good luck with that. you know, like there's just no answers and there's not. I think there's not space or bandwidth for the amount of collective curiosity around, you know, holistic medicine. Right. And how to like, be with a person who's having some really complicated symptoms you know, to help them, you know, find something that might, improve how they're feeling and

Val:

Man. we talked about also less episode about stress cycles. Right. And being able to like speak out and I do in the flight flatter freeze. I do the freeze

Kat:

response. Yeah.

Val:

Yeah. If someone is like disrespecting me or treating me badly at first is the freeze what is this really happening? I went to a doctor. And I was IBS on top of my other chronic stuff, and that's pretty common like, and The care that I got was so terrible that I was like the first time I wrote a Google review. And I just was like, if you want compassionate care, if you've ever had any sort of eating disorder, please do not go to this office. You will not receive what you need. Thousands of people have read it. Oh my I'm so proud of it. And people are thumbs up in it and I'm just like, no, this person was really, really terrible to me. And just so dismissive, so dismissive. So, Like I'm validating even, maybe some of the resistance you had. Yeah. And when you, Deal with chronic stuff. It is like, mm. I, haven't gone to the doctors about my fibromyalgia in like two decades, because unless there's something new, yeah. I, I don't know what they could do for me. I really don't. You know, so I can understand the resistance.

Kat:

Thank you.

Val:

To going

Kat:

right. And so you know, I'm having some issues where I'm having sort of new symptoms that are recurring more frequently and they're pretty debilitating. And so again, it's a whole, like quality of life and I. I've done all this work around like resting when I need to, and trying to listen to my body and like being kind and gentle of my body and accepting I myself as I am and embracing some limitations, all that's fine. But then, you know, I'm like more is heaped on top of, and I'm like, I'm having a hard time functioning. And so you were just so kind and just very, like, it's very like consistently coming back to like, so what. Some tests though, maybe. Huh And so, yeah, and then I actually do like my primary care physician. It's just you know, it's in the Kaiser system. I know that she has 1500 patients it's too

Val:

that number blows my mind. That number blows my mind

Kat:

Right. Cause not everyone is even accessing care who has insurance. Right. And so, but that's too much to work on. You know, the, the doctor can't spend the amount of time with me that, you know, I need

Val:

Sure, sure.

Kat:

Sure. And so anyway, yeah, so I emailed her and then she ordered some tests and I went and got the test done. And so you know, I'll wait to see an E email and then I try to schedule an appointment for myself and it's weeks away, stupid dumb thing unbeliev. I know. So anyway, and then

Val:

you were noticing that you had some resistance. Yeah.

Kat:

Well, the resistance is because of the trauma of the medical industrial complex, right? Like it's everything you just said. Yeah. I've had all those experiences too. And then it, it feels like a lot to welcome someone into a space that's so tender and I was noticing that will. The resistance comes from the reluctance to open up something that's so tender, cuz it feels scary to have new symptoms and to feel like I can't function like this. Right. And so, I, you know, had made plans with someone and had to go on a bit of a drive to get to them. And then I ended up getting sick at their place and I felt so terrible. Like I felt really yucky and bad and I wasn't in my own space. And so it made fear show up where I'm like, God, can I not go do fun things that are, you know, a few hours away? So it's just a thing where I've. Already adapted my life quite a bit, and I don't want my world to get even smaller, you know? And so that feels tender because there's grief and there's unknowns. And maybe I feel like I failed because

Val:

Jesus

Kat:

thought my like strategy was. Pretty pretty amazing and revolutionary I'm like, I'm gonna be the most self-compassion radical acceptance person out there. Like that's, I'm gonna regulate my nervous system by being kind to myself and resting as much as I need to. So I have this deep practice, which I has changed my life. Like I love it, but my body's still freaking out. So.

Val:

Sure. And I think the symptoms started to show up when you were going through a stressful yeah. They're flaring up during a stressful time, but then some of the symptoms seemed maybe a little bit more acute, okay, maybe a doctor actually can help with this. Obviously. Tons of things get worse when we're more stressed, but it seemed like maybe this is something that needs to get tested. Right.

Kat:

So I'm like actively in that process, but yeah, like, so when I get curious about the resistance, I found a lot of spaces that are, you know, kind of tucked in pretty tight that need some love and care and compassion. Right. And even talking about it out loud, I can hear how it's still tender. Right. And so. That's what that resistance told me is that there's some tender that will probably take me some time to sit with and be with and slowly invite people into. Mm. And, you know, again, that's our prerogative. Like when we ask resistance, what are you there for? It usually is preservation of some kind, right? It's self protection. Yeah.

Val:

Self-protection

Kat:

Yeah. And so it's not a negative thing. The people that I agree to let into this space that they have to be, you know, well, vetted because I, cause I, I don't feel safe, sharing it. You know the details of it with, just anybody cuz it's tender and it hurts and it feels it's unresolved and it's not neat and tidy. And I would like it to be sure

Val:

Sure. Well, it sounds like there's fear of the unknown, right? Is it hopelessness of, the medical con also, I think I made up the term about it. I don't know if I did make that up. I just wanna

Kat:

maybe I've heard it. The medical industrial conflict sounds like a thing. Yeah.

Val:

But some distrust or some like why even try well founded. Yeah,

Kat:

exactly. And so like, that's the thing, in order to get these tests run, to see if there is something maybe medical that could be tweaked and addressed so

Val:

mm-hmm

Kat:

feel better. Right. That's the goal. Yeah. I have to then get myself kind of settled in enough that I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take this risk again within a system that I already know. Has not served me well. Right. And again, even though I like my actual PCP, my primary care physician she, herself is not problematic in any particular way. we can't solve the puzzle very easily. Right. Mm-hmm and so,

Val:

and just even the energy of advocating for yourself, all of it pushing. Yes. Right. All of that is, is very difficult and takes a lot of energy and all of that.

Kat:

Yeah,

Val:

also a little bit different than resistance, but I talk about anxiety and we haven't really talked a ton about it yet on the podcast, but I feel like anxiety is helpful to a.

Kat:

point.

Val:

Kind of like, okay, should I be worried about this? Like I remember being worried about you know, my dad died young. And so just checking on myself, getting, blood tests and all that right. Feeling resistance to that. Actually I didn't feel resistance. Well, I didn't recognize it. I felt anxiety about my health. Well, why, well, because you don't have any data. You haven't gotten it checked in a while. Right. And so just noticing that even anxiety can be just that nudge sometimes that's where it's helpful, I think productive. And then when it goes past worry, we need to release it, Anxiety can't or worry. Can't really change my health. But it can, it

Kat:

can, well, it can't improve your

Val:

health. It can't improve. It

Kat:

can, can

Val:

Oh, thank you. Thank you for that. Very

Kat:

I know. I was like, I'm pretty sure

Val:

Right. Worry can, oh geez. I can, but it's not going to help my health. Right. But that kind of nudge, like, so if we're feeling anxious about something like, is, is the anxiety nudging me to do anything? okay. Yep. Let me go schedule some tests. Right. So sometimes those feelings actually have a real helpful duty.

Kat:

Our culture asks us over and over again shut down anything we perceive as negative emotions. So anxiety resistance. Right. So like really the, bigger umbrella here in this conversation, it's not just resistance, but it's anything that we understand as negative emotion. Like if we can move away from the black and white thinking or the binary thinking of this is good, this is bad. This is negative. This is positive. Mm-hmm if we just acknowledge an emotion has shown up enough that we're like, oh, that's a thing. You know,

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

of back when we were in Bible college, mm-hmm I lived in a much smaller body then, but I still had a slightly larger body than I thought I was supposed to have. So we were on drama teams, remember?

Val:

Yeah. Oh yeah. We

Kat:

had to go to the fucking store and like pick out the clothes. And so we're supposed to have like the same uniform, I can't buy the same pants at the rack where everyone else is buying them. I have to go to different section. Right. And so that didn't feel good at all. Mm-hmm and yeah. And then also the clothing that were picked out for this drama team. a baggy sweatshirt and khaki pants. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not fucking gonna look good on me. And I remember the director, like noticing that I was shutting down and then like insisting on me telling her what the problem was and that just made it, I felt worse, you know? Oh, I mean, I didn't. Skills to articulate it, but, you know, I think I got the point across and then she sort of left it alone,. But what I was feeling was like intense shame and it was shutting me down. And so it could have been like this fun all of us are like having this bonding experience. We're doing this thing and we're excited about the drama teams, but I remember like the whole rest of the day felt bad to me. Mm. Yeah.. Well, I didn't know how to like own it or let it move through. All I knew how to do was shut something down, Shutting

Val:

down an emotion versus acknowledging it. Yeah. Validating it. Mm-hmm being curious about being curious. Right.

Kat:

Asking for support around. Yeah. I mean, I think all of us, I mean, listeners, I'm sure you can relate to this. I think all of us have stores where we can remember, oh, I just shut down. And I didn. Address, whatever, again, the negative a feeling was so yeah, if we talk about negative emotions, like sometimes it's really hard to recognize shame when it shows up. I feel like shame is one of the most sort of sneaky and insidious painful

Val:

emotion.

Kat:

I mean, is it an emotion is an experience. Is it just programming? Is it just the story we're telling ourselves around something?

Val:

Yeah. I think maybe it's, all the both ends. Like I think it can be called an emotion. I'm feeling shame. I also think you have a bodily response to it. Mm

Kat:

Mm. Yeah.

Val:

also, could it be a belief I love the very simple definition that guilt is I did something bad. Oops, my bad, I hurt your feelings, but shame is I'm bad, I'm a fuck up. I'm terrible. I'm not worthy anymore so guilt is, I did a bad thing. Shame is I'm bad.

Kat:

Yeah. And I just, I wanna send like younger Catherine, a lot of compassion because I felt like I was bad. I was wrong because my body, I couldn't clothe it in the same part of the goddamn department store as the other people that's fucked up. That's sad. I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry for me. You know what I mean? Yeah,

Val:

Oh, a hundred percent. One time we were in Brazil and I left my bathing suit there and he's like, oh, just go buy a bikini right here. And I, I had so much shame that I didn't wanna say. it won't fit me or it won't look good. I mean, I couldn't believe we actually found one that fit, but then I wore a shirt over it, cuz I was like, well, my stomach's not flat. Like, you know what I mean? That was maybe seven years ago or eight years ago. But that shame that. And again, because it's internalized because we were taught that we were bad because we couldn't keep our bodies at a certain size that was healthy and acceptable or whatever. Right. That we were bad. We must have done something wrong

Kat:

Yeah. I'm just realizing I'm remembering more about the drama team story. Ooh. So listen, I don't know if I've been clear of listeners, Valerie and I, we were both on drama team. We used to on weekends, go and travel at churches and sometimes our spring break.

Val:

and summer break

Kat:

too. We would go and travel all these churches. we would do skits.

Val:

What were the other things called? Human videos. Oh my gosh.

Kat:

God. Oh, I, I feel, feels real.

Val:

If you were here for the deconstruction. You did human videos in your youth group,

Kat:

what's funny is human videos are like a fun thing to do. Now I think about TikTok. it's that fun, creative energy of like, here's a song I'm gonna MI it and I'm maybe gonna create dance

Val:

moves. Mm-hmm mm-hmm

Kat:

similar. So we were all really into it, but they were always Christian songs. We were trying to get people saved.

Val:

But God's love like, that was, that was in there too. It wasn't it

Kat:

it was, it was for being

Val:

cat. It was for being so optimistic. And in its own way. Sure. I think it was like an outreach of Hey God is here for you and here's healing

Kat:

Yeah. They weren't all bad. But yeah, there was just, there was still a lot of the toxic

Val:

stuff It's the both ACA

Kat:

So what I was remembering as we're having this conversation, I had resistance. It's flooding my memory of like I had dread and resistance. I did not wanna go and I didn't wanna go because I fucking knew you

Val:

it was not

Kat:

like, it was not gonna be fun to try to go shopping with other people, especially in other people in more normative bodies than myself. Right. And I was gonna feel othered and that would make me feel shame.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

So like resistance in that story was self-preservation. I didn't wanna have that shame experience.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

Mm-hmm So like in interpersonal relationships, when suddenly someone is behaving oddly, and you know, you guys realize there's some resistance to that. Again, being curious and not judgemental about it, because we don't know someone's whole story.

Val:

Okay. Before we go any further with resistance, should we cut to commercials? Yes, please. Okay. Cue the commercials. Aren't they cute our commercials. okay. We'll be right back. Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat:

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Val:

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Kat:

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Val:

All right. Thank you. We're back. Yay. Alright. So today reframing resistance. I think we have a couple options. When resistance shows up.

Kat:

Sure. Yeah.

Val:

I think first we've talked a lot about centering yourself, right? Checking in with yourself, is this something that I wanna do so first maybe the resistance is showing up because oh, I don't want to do this. And maybe giving yourself permission. Giving yourself permission to say, this does not sound good. Right. And giving yourself the permission to center yourself.

Kat:

Yeah, absolutely.

Val:

Then I think there's a deeper one, right? What's showing up for me. And what's deeper here. What's the backstory. what's the backstory, crack it open. There's something else going on here. And, and kind of just sitting with that and asking those questions to see like, Okay, well then where do we go from here? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

I have a practice

Val:

I Ooh,

Kat:

kind of intuited, you know, like I later found out that there is something in therapy terms. That's called internal family systems. Mm-hmm and so, but my own practice of it is when I experience a particular emotion, it's quite strong. Sometimes I will do the thing where I personify

Val:

it. Mm. And

Kat:

so. So what I do is I I have created inside my body just using my imagination really decadent living room. Right.

Val:

It's

Kat:

is my internal spaces. And so it's blankets and snacks and the comas couches and you know it's wonderful.

Val:

It's a such great space.

Kat:

Also. There's like a lot of windows and there's like beautiful

Val:

views. It's So fantastic.

Kat:

fantastic. And so when there's something happening that I, I need to have a better understanding of, I will personify it. So there's a door and I welcome. Whatever's showing up for me. They can come in the door. And so it's really kind of cool because oftentimes it'll look, you know, like kind of like people or whatever. But they're quite distinctive. Like, I mean, different ages of Catherine has shown up,

Val:

Mm. So different parts of yourself.

Kat:

All, I mean, it can be anything

Val:

though. And that's the

Kat:

the neat thing, Like I may have shared this before, but like one time, grief was showing up in such a big way. Mm-hmm and I was really surprised that when I allowed grief him, it didn't show up in any kind of. Form that looked humanoid or like an animal. It was like this orb, this large messy pulsating orb. I remember feeling like anxious cuz it was making mess in my beautiful imagined space.

Val:

oh

Kat:

yeah. And it reminded me of Pigpen, you know how from in the, in the peanuts, like he's just making a mess. There's like a mess puddle around him. And it was this throbbing sort of orb thing and it was quite large. And so then I had invited a human that I love and feel safe with, to sit with the, grief with me because it was a really overpowering emotion for me. And so I was like, could you please ask grief

Val:

questions?

Kat:

And they were like, they were just along for the ride. Like, it was a little unusual for them. To do this, but they're like, okay, Catherine, whatever. So they're like grief what you need. And it was interesting because it, I mean, I heard the answers show up inside me before they even finished getting the question out. And then because I was recognizing my resistance, I had resistance to the grief, even being in this like

Val:

beautiful circum didn't make a

Kat:

I created. Cause they're gonna make a.

Val:

mess.

Kat:

Right. And so the answer was grief needed permission to be here. And then, so I got to say like, yes, grief you're allowed to be here. And then I got to adjust the resistance I was feeling. So then we just spent a little time in the orb. What does it do? Cracked open and inside of it was this really young version of me, like this little three year old of me,

Val:

like yeah, like,

Kat:

went on the couch and like, got to be comforted by a different aspect of

Val:

myself.

Kat:

And I'm telling you, like, all this is happening while like big crying tears and all these things like feeling some big things. But what it communicated to me in hindsight is that again, we can. Old shit sometimes like the grief, whatever was happening in my present day life to sort of kick it

Val:

loose. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. it was creating a pathway for some very old

Val:

grief

Kat:

to surface and then be healed, right. Because of care and compassion, you know, and it included that story includes co-regulation of another human being

Val:

who's sure.

Kat:

safe and loving. And so like, I think about how we would use that say it's resistance. So you just. You know, I do this with people, who I love in my life. And I'm like, oh, you wanna go play in the magic space? And so some people will create an outdoor space, that makes you just feel so good.

Val:

KA, so, so for maybe some of our listeners who don't have such a free access to this emotional, you know creativity. Yeah. I think what you're saying is just close your eyes and think of a, place that seems nice to you. Is that a good place to start?

Kat:

absolutely. So like, just imagine a space where you feel at home and comfortable. Yeah. Okay. And so that's the key is cuz you're trying to get your nervous system out of fight or

Val:

flight mm-hmm thing.

Kat:

And so, yeah, so you're picking a beautiful

Val:

space.

Kat:

Okay. And then you just create a door just somewhere. And then, so you welcome, you say out loud or just in your imagination, like, okay, I'm ready to look at you resistance and so welcome. And then here's, what's really cool. Is that you'll see like how they even present themselves often is all the information,

Val:

right? Yeah. It look like? Ooh, I ask clients when there's like a harsh, inner voice. Yeah. I ask well, what do you think it could look like? Or if you had to pick, to personify it or whose voice does that sound like? Yeah. And then it's like, oh, there's some answers. Okay. Now maybe we. Seeing some of the origins of it. right? Yeah. Okay.

Kat:

it can really help us untangle, like when we're getting curious about ourselves, especially when it comes to negative emotions, we're getting curious, not judgemental, just curious. And so then suddenly there's so much information that we can like utilize in really productive ways. Mm-hmm right. Or really healing ways. Mm-hmm and then it just, I don't know, I'm fucking passionate about it cuz it feels so cool to get free. Yeah. And this is just another. Way to

Val:

get free.

Kat:

This is how we get free. Another really helpful thing to do is to just sit and

Val:

write stream. Right.

Kat:

of consciousness. And then you could do the same kind of thing because yeah, we can hack it however we want

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

Right. Figure out what's gonna work

Val:

for you. Yeah.

Kat:

stream of consciousness can be really effective because you also have some physical movement involved. Mm. And you're writing. And what I notice when I do stream of consciousness is that sometimes it's just the freedom to like write messy, write super big, underline

Val:

something

Kat:

18 times, you know, to like, like harshly flip the page over and scribble really big. Yeah. Yeah. And so what you're doing is. in any creative way. You can imagine you're creating some space for whatever the emotion

Val:

is. Mm-hmm

Kat:

to get as big as it needs to get. Mm-hmm and that's the key we're looking for creative ways to like, be with mm-hmm a big, hard

Val:

emotion. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. And then it's allowed to sort of move through and often it will give us really, really helpful

Val:

information. Yeah.

Kat:

will help us navigate, you know, forward in some other areas of our life. You know, when I think about, folks out there who are maybe listening, who this sounds appealing, but maybe overwhelming if you feel like it's not something you can access on your own, that's when you're like, Hmm. I may find a

Val:

therapist,

Kat:

you know, or like, you know, there's life coaches, there's, you know, there's people out there where this is their vocation to come alongside and to help. So if you don't already have relationships cultivated where this is like the kind of shit you can talk

Val:

folks.

Kat:

then you know, you seek out, seek out care for folks who. can hold space for

Val:

it.

Kat:

Sure. Yeah. it's one of those things that I think most of us can grow in, learning how to hold space for

Val:

yourself. Mm-hmm

Kat:

and your own individual experiences in a compassionate way.

Val:

Mm-hmm

Kat:

And so going back to the living room though, like again, whatever your space that you feel good in, but when I would welcome. An emotion in, I would make them as comfortable as I could. I'd be like here, have a seat, have this fuzzy blanket, you know? Would you like a snack? And that it was like, it was like a imagined physical way to offer compassion. Right.

Val:

So, and make it feel welcome. Because we talk about creating enough space for an emotion to sort of just be exist, move through you. So it seems like that you were doing it in a very

Kat:

creative

Val:

way. of Like here

Kat:

and then here's compassion for you. Right. And so compassion looks like a blanket.

Val:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Kat:

that? So how can I be soft with you? How can I engage with you? Emotion say you're allowed to be here and also like direct some kindness at you. And so literally in my imagination, I'm just making them comfortable. Isn't that interesting? It's super

Val:

It is fun. You know, another thing that I I'd ask someone like when they have resistance, how well do you feel? Oh,

Kat:

Oh, that's such a good one.

Val:

cuz I can hear like maybe a client sound kind of like a bra teenager or even younger, I don't wanna like, it's so unfair, not that I'm saying those things are bad, but oh, they feel younger when they're talking about that thing. And then you can do some of this work with your younger self. Totally.

Kat:

When I think about this, it's a room full of beings at this point, Different ages of Catherine's. Right. all different ages. Like a neat way to do some inner healing. This idea of

Val:

reparenting yourself? Mm-hmm

Kat:

and it's really similar. There's a lot of overlap between what I'm saying, just self-compasion. But one time I was chatting with someone and they had, some big feelings they're trying to process and they needed comfort. And so I was like, what if you could imagine a 60 year old version of yourself? Could they come into the room? Mm-hmm right. And most of us, when we think about that, this older version is wiser, Mm-hmm and, you know, paternal, right. mm-hmm if you add 20 years to your age or whatever. That was this really powerful thing for this friend of mine, suddenly they had access to a mature, grounded, loving, parental

Val:

self. Mm mm isn't that interesting. Mm-hmm

Kat:

and then when you're just going about your life and your day, you still have access to that kind of energy for reparenting yourself for offering yourself compassion for the tender, for the hard, for the trauma, for whatever is showing

Val:

up Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. I like the, older version, cuz maybe sometimes if you're still in it, right. If you're still feeling real tender or I don't know what I'm doing, like how can I, reparent my younger self, right. Accessing an older version that does sound powerful.

Kat:

I saw something, maybe it was a meme or something, but it was like, you were already the adult that the child you desk really wanted.

Val:

Yes. Isn't it? yes, yes. Yes.

Kat:

So when you ask these hard emotions, you know, like how old are

Val:

you,

Kat:

But the, the point is, is that most of us still have tender places. Yeah. We've locked down because our culture wouldn't let us feel our feelings at the

Val:

time. Yeah.

Kat:

Right.

Val:

And in the eternal family system. So they talk about the protector type mm-hmm and, and this part of you that is in a lot of times from, some traumatic things, is that resistance? Absolutely. And then, you get to bring them into the present. Yeah. And say like, oh, thank you. Yeah. Like that was so wise. It was so wise to never let anyone in to never take a chance at vulnerability because of what you experienced or that you weren't able to, you know, control the situation cuz you were a kid and now welcoming that person into the future that version of yourself and go look around like, we're adults. Now this whole apartment is ours. We call the shots. We decide if we're in danger, we could do something about it. And that, protection, maybe isn't. Need it anymore. Yeah. Hey, we can stand up for ourselves now we can say no. Yeah. And so thanking it, realizing that it was very helpful then. Yeah. And kind of just showing them around

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

And, okay, so I've experienced more than once. Like something shows up and you invite them in, you talk to'em and then they'll transmute themselves. Mmm In your imagination, it's almost like you're watching a movie, but you're just engaging with that energy. And then you address it, you offer it compassion and it will just like fucking transform right before your eyes, before your imagination really

Val:

before your imagination's eyes. It's

Kat:

before your imagination eyes. But it's interesting because it doesn't feel like you're consciously trying to imagine it. It feels like you're just being open and you're allowing these things to sort of move. In your consciousness

Val:

moving like a

Kat:

almost like a picture like a movie

Val:

would

Kat:

mm-hmm it's really cool. Like even again, that big, scary grief, right. That orb thing was throbbing. And I was so afraid of it. Like it transmuted, it cracked open and it turned out to be this younger version of myself.

Val:

Well, that's interesting because I'm trained in EMDR therapy and there's different phases of it and, sort of discharge the distress from the old memories. Yeah. And then it's called future templating where cuz you always start with the present triggers, what are the present problems? Yeah. Right. And then you look to the future and oh how would you wanna deal with this situation in the future? And so then you create a movie. And then yep. And then we do the bilateral stimulation As a part of it, and we keep doing it until they can run the movie like they're doing it successfully. And then if there's any negative, they get stuck, then we, keep reprocessing. But wow, it's really powerful. So it's all kind of, right. It's all kind of in the same realm

Kat:

no wrong way. Right? Like, you know, that's the neat thing.

Val:

And you know, I am using more imagination for anxiety too, because they're showing that, the part of your brain that deals with imagery and imagination can be more powerful to get you unstuck. Oh. Than in the cognitive mm-hmm hundred percent. Yeah. And this is really powerful. I know we need to do an, an episode of, and anxiety, but especially with people who catastrophize worst case scenario, I do suffer from that. But your brain has already used its imagination, right. Yeah. Yeah. anticipate the worst case scenario. Sure. So let's use our brain to think of best case scenario and then I do like a, okay. We'll live if it happens this way. Sure. Right. And the power to shift right. Anxiety that way, instead of well, let's think of what are the probabilities that your house is gonna burn down. Right. all of that is really, really

Kat:

powerful. Okay. So like, we're still talking a little bit about mental exercises and this kind of creativity, but you just like trying to get into a flow state by making something or sewing something, but something tactile, like any kind of creative outlet. It literally could be ending. You could be like writing comedy and gonna perform it. So, but something creative can sometimes move and dislodge some emotions that can be stuck.

Val:

And you have to

Kat:

to engage your cognitive brain. Yep. That's what's so

Val:

fascinating. Oh, well, and with the EMDR, it's not talk therapy. I mean, it really is getting stuff unstuck in your brain. Yeah. And even art therapy, which I haven't studied. But just the power. It, it really is powerful. So thank you for all the art therapists who are out there just helping people. And I know you said that

Kat:

well, yeah, you don't have to be an art. The, so even know what the fuck it is, but you could just play around with some art supplies. Uh, yes, Like I spent years now making fat liberation art, where I make beautiful imagery from very fat and diverse bodies and it transformed

Val:

me.

Kat:

And, you know, I told that story at the top of the episode, I know about feeling shame going shopping, and I wouldn't have that experience day cuz I really have healed from some of those things. Yeah. And a hundred percent, the, the reason is because of spending this deep

Val:

dive and

Kat:

in, in believing that you know, all bodies are beautiful. Right. And that yeah. Body diversity is,

Val:

natural duh. Bodies are different. Duh, get over

Kat:

a no brainer and

Val:

Open your eyes.

Kat:

I know, I know.

Val:

open your eyes. Oh, I kinda just got aggressive. What the, what is that? Oh, cat. This was good today. I don't know. Do we need to talk about pleasure or do we just end it? I'm gonna cut this out if we want to. It's alright. I just wanna ask you a question, KA.

Kat:

Yeah. Well, I just, I just wanna say like, it brings me pleasure. This practice is

Val:

pleasure and

Kat:

and what's interesting is. There is an immediate release to unlocking something. It could be resistance, it could be any number of things, but on the other side of engaging with it, curiously and maybe creatively is fucking freedom. Mm. I don't know what is more pleasurable than freedom. What the fuck's more pleasurable than freedom. Right?

Val:

Yes. Yes. yes

Kat:

So that's, what's bringing me pleasure. Getting free, getting free, getting free.

Val:

You getting free.

Kat:

Okay. Well, we love you guys. We want you all to be as free

Val:

this Ooh.

Kat:

possible. Thank you for being on this journey with us. good. It's so good.

Val:

It's so good. It's so good. It's so good. You're so good. I love you, cat.

Kat:

I love

Val:

you bell until next time.

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host