3 Questions with Kat & Val

Getting Creative with “Unsolvable Problems”

• Season 1 • Episode 20

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. Oh, here we are again, my friend.

Kat:

hello, Val.

Val:

How are you doing

Kat:

for today? Oh I love that. We open all of our episodes. Giggling.

Val:

I do like it. I dunno if anyone else likes it,

Kat:

we like it. It's good for us. Oh, friends. We just like each other and Val's so gorgeous right now. People I made I took a whole bunch of pictures and then Val was like, I might need to take this into my own hands. Yes.

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

yes.

Val:

Self love

Kat:

yay

Val:

right. But I am wearing this beautiful shirt I got, my little shopping trip yesterday, and I told you that I was mad at my husband for being gone so long. So I was like, he's like, what's your plan for today's sugar? And I was like, I'm going out to spend your money. Asshole.

Kat:

cause he hasn't gone a long fucking time.

Val:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. We're gonna talk about that a little more, but I was like, yeah, I'm just going to go spend your money. And just so that, you know, it's just really etched into your brain. It's not a good idea to be caught this

Kat:

I know you told me that normally you guys talk about your money as your guys' money, like your money together, collectively and that when you're mad at him, you're like, I'm gonna spend your money

Val:

Exactly, exactly. Cuz it's our money. Like, like we have one account, but I, yeah, exactly. It feels good to be like I'm spending your money. Cause I know how much it hurts him. It hurts him to part with his money. When, when when we were younger we would go and, and this barista would always be like, Hey, where's Rafi. I'm like Paul, he's out making my money. so I loved saying that where's Rafi, he's out making my money.

Kat:

Oh that's awesome.

Val:

then I realized it's our money. but I was like, babe, you know that I could really fuck you up. I remind every once in a while I want him to be a little scared. I feel like that's healthy, isn't it? No, is that, but I'm like, you know, I could just take all of our money and you would never know

Kat:

Could, could.

Val:

and actually my grandma is so funny. Right. She's like OG, I mean, don't ever joke with her that our family was ever in the Italian mob from New York. I don't think that they were, yeah. Wink, wink. I mean, I actually don't think they were, but like, don't joke with her about that, but she's a little bit gangster. She's like. Take it from me. Just hide a little bit of your money from Rafi. Just a little, just a little on the side. Every woman needs a little money. Her husband doesn't know anything about now. I mean, granted, she was born in the twenties and women were actually not allowed to have their own bank

Kat:

I know So,

Val:

right. But so RAI hates to hear that, cuz he thinks he's got my grandmother wrapped around his little finger, but she doesn't trust him.

Kat:

that's

Val:

he's a trauma. She says he's a cha yeah. But she really likes that he loves his money and saves his money. If I know that Rafi, he saves his money

Kat:

Oh my gosh he does, Oh, these are good grandma stories.

Val:

Oh, oh man. Well, I haven't even broken out the, the grandma stories. There's some pretty amazing ones, but I know how, how much it hurts my husband's apart with his money. So, I mean, I bought a shirt at full price,

Kat:

Yes you

Val:

wild as I got and I bought a lipstick with credit. And then he was like, no, no, no, no, babe. Don't do it. Don't do it. It will just grow weeds inside your beautiful heart. You're a good woman. You're a good woman. I'm like, yes, I am. So stop fucking around.

Kat:

I know. And so like your act of rebellion is to buy one gorgeous shirt that looks amazing on you at full price one

Val:

just one.

Kat:

it was such a good investment. Cuz you got all that great dopamine. You got to be a little bit rebellious and just sort of like exercise your autonomy cuz he's gone at work for work way too long Yeah And so yeah I think that was, those are good choices you made Val.

Val:

I think I did. And then he had like some good meetings at work and if you've been around for a while that I get full permission from him to share about our lives. I get consent. So don't worry about him. But I said, you know, I'm gonna talk about our relationship on look podcast today.

Kat:

He's been warned He's been well

Val:

oh man, don't do it. Don't do it. I'm gonna get the haters.

Kat:

He's always making up haters

Val:

he's

Kat:

that motherfucker doesn't know what haters are.

Val:

He's worried about the haters. No, no. And then he's like, babe, I had such good. I have such good meetings. I'm going to fill your breasts with cash.

Kat:

My God.

Val:

I said you know, I'm saying that on the podcast. No, no, don't do it. Don't do it. They're gonna think it's a poor, no podcast. I said they probably already do. It's all right. You're cat's showing you up. It's all good.

Kat:

Oh my

Val:

God. But that's how much he loves cash. So, I mean, yeah, well

Kat:

sounds pretty kinky to me.

Val:

So no, So the other, the other way I've been trying to cope while he's gone is playing pickleball. Oh yeah. Got second place and a little, little round

Kat:

I didn't know you were doing

Val:

round Robin tournament. It's like you change partners with every game. So it's not, not like the other tournaments, but yeah, it was, it was fun. There was a little, I

Kat:

place though

Val:

Yeah. competitive. I am actually, it, it is. I don't know if it's always so good, but

Kat:

always noticeable. Like from our conversations, like people who listen to the podcast, they probably have no idea. I barely see this competitive side of you. Yeah. I like hearing

Val:

remember.

Kat:

though.

Val:

you like that? Don't you got, let me tell you how see. I can't do it. I was about to try to do something sexy with competition and I was like, wow, I don't know what I'm doing. I

Kat:

you lost your nerve.

Val:

I didn't know what to say.

Kat:

okay. So this is funny You would come, I have friends in my circle of friends. I can't remember exactly how it came up, but someone's talking about flirting. I'm always talking about flirting and I'm like, I'm like such a good flirt. And like the key to flirting is just like a sincere compliment and like holding eye contact. And then ONAC, there's all these like, things about flirting. Okay. So watch this. So like value look really good today, right? That's not flirting. Yeah. But you're like valuing really good today. Yeah.

Val:

OK. I do. I do know those basics of flirting. Cause thank you very

Kat:

so what you can say any sentence

Val:

cuz I was trying to think of something clever, but I

Kat:

it doesn't really

Val:

oh cat. I bet you like to see me be competitive.

Kat:

Yeah exactly And then don't let it go up at the end. You keep it nice and low. Oh yeah You wanna see me be competitive? Huh? Yeah. See that's all it is. It's all that. Listen, we just given that shit out for free people. Go get your flirt on. Go flirt with some people. I'll also flirt with your friends It's good for your friendships Oh my

Val:

gosh So I was talking about trying to cope yeah. With pickle ball. So I ended up, like, I played this tournament and I guess I wasn't tired after. Yeah. So I was like, let's stay and play some more. And the other people came out and then it's of course. It's just one more game. Wait, wait, wait, if you leave, we only have three. Okay. Fine. But then I was

Kat:

chasing the dopamine high. Aren't

Val:

I was like, guys,

Kat:

Yeah

Val:

peoples the bottoms of my feet burn and I can't feel my little toe

Kat:

Oh no,

Val:

I've been playing for five hours. I have to leave. And then I kind of did the same thing the next day. I know. I know, but it just, it's so fun. It feels so good. and then I went shopping after.

Kat:

I yeah. And that's where you got the great top.

Val:

I got the great top, but then I was like, I don't

Kat:

you do to your body

Val:

I dunno. What do people do if they can't walk back to their car? I wasn't sure. See people try to say exercise, there's nothing wrong with it. Well, you can even abuse that and, and hurt yourself.

Kat:

yeah. That's a real common tale. Yeah.

Val:

It's a common town. Yeah. I haven't gotten an injury, but, you know, since my illness is sort of chronic, Ooh, you're gonna feel like you can't walk

Kat:

So how did it, how did it go getting up this morning?

Val:

I kind of do this. Ooh, ow. Hey, ow. I take I actually couldn't fall asleep. Real good. I had to wait till the ibuprofen kicked in or whatever. Yeah. But it's, it's a fun way of coping. Right. And you talk about getting my dopamine. It was just so lovely. I've been shouting out our mayor of pickleball, a lot on this podcast, but one morning I went and he's like so Val I'm caught up on the podcast and,

Kat:

oh yay.

Val:

you here for your communal ever vests? it was so lovely to be greeted that way. So the podcast is just coming back in my face, giving me some, just little gratitude. So that's, what's been going

Kat:

I had someone DM me in our, Instagram account saying that they started calling their partner motherfucker and it's so fun. I made me so happy. Oh my God We just Yeah people let's all be a little bit irreverent. It's pretty wonderful. Helps us get through the fucking day.

Val:

It really does. It feels good

Kat:

well I think, I don't know. Maybe it began because we weren't allowed to swear once upon a time. Like it feels like freedom every time I say fuck her. But also it's just such a regular part of my vocabulary now I don't edit myself, but in deference to my ex-husband's preferences, I try not to swear to him. Right. Cuz he really does not like it. He feels strongly about it, but we're talking about some kid stuff and he and I are doing good with like being co-parents right now It's it's going pretty well, but so I can't remember what we were talking about, but all this, I was like, yeah, Jesus fucking Christ. It's just rough right now. Oh, it's cuz I was feeling really ill. I was having like a really rough couple weeks and so I didn't realize, and I was too late. And so like out of all the things that he would not appreciate hearing Jesus fucking

Val:

no, it's not good. I, something happens inside my body still when you say it

Kat:

oh really?

Val:

and

Kat:

so you like, fuck and fuck and motherfucker Yeah But you can't

Val:

did Jesus do to you? What did Jesus like?

Kat:

What, oh yeah What did Jesus do to you? I think Jesus is probably fine. Like if Jesus, Jesus and I, we gonna kick it, I'd be like what's up Jesus. But anyway I, I love taking his name in vain so

Val:

Yeah. That one

Kat:

cuz I wasn't allowed to Yeah

Val:

still is hard for me. That's sorry. No, no, no, no, but I just wanna say, in an effort not to censor you. Oh, cuz I edit the podcast. I could edit it out, but I

Kat:

don't, You don't

Val:

don't without telling you that's my own internal, there are no weeds in my heart. As my husband Don't censor cat that will put weeds in your heart.

Kat:

Yeah. Not without my knowledge. Yeah, absolutely. That's so funny.

Val:

But you know leading into our topic

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

I realize there's something that I've been doing that I think is coming from our past as well. Right. Because you know the last couple episodes we've released, we talked about resistance and ADHD. We did another ADHD episode and in there I remember listening back to it and I'm like, wow, I really talk a lot about yeah, maybe I'm just gonna divorce my husband.

Kat:

yeah. yeah, that comes in like today's the day

Val:

I think it's a funny stick. It's a funny bit that I'm like, oh, well maybe time's up. Yep. And I was like, Val, why are you doing that? Like, people are gonna think you've like, you're, you're a little too wild here. Right. So I thought I started to just kind of think about it and reflect on it. And I was like, you know, I think because for so long it was one of the worst things, right. It just seems like, that. And like premarital sex, the worst things you could do

Kat:

in our old worldview Totally

Val:

And how even disruptive it is, I mean, to everybody's lives, like whether you're in that kind of belief system or not, but just even if you were working for church, how could you get divorced? Cuz the woman always gets thrown under the bus. They always get the short under the stick in that situation. And so how, like that was the worst thing. And I mean, there were times when I was like, it would just be better if I weren't alive than get a divorce. How terrible is that? that's how big of a failure it felt, right? That inflexibility. This is not how life is.

Kat:

And so now you have the freedom of actually I have autonomy and if I decided to be done, I could be done. And you could just like, live your life in that shame free.

Val:

I feel like it's just that reminder, yep. Hey, if it's done, it's done. And I think because we have a pretty big unsolvable problem in our relationship, I think I brought that up in the ADHD episode and we thought we would talk about that more today. Yeah. Right.

Kat:

The unsolvable problems,

Val:

The unsolvable

Kat:

problems.

Val:

Should we break to commercial now? Before we get into it? Are you looking for love? But you're ready to give up on dating it's. So hopper and reset yourself for love with me in my six week coaching program together, we'll prepare you for dating with new clarity, intention, and passion to create the life and love you desire.

Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat:

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Val:

Oh man. ah,

Kat:

well, they show up in our lives in all different kinds of contexts in ways Right. So, yeah, interpersonal relationships maybe our listeners, you guys have experienced this where you and someone else can't seem to reconcile a particular issue. Mm-hmm but then, you know, we look at like bigger things in our culture it zooms out there's problems in the world. Yeah. You and I talked about chronic illness Yeah. So what

Val:

Friendships, family relationships. Yeah. What do we do about it? Well, I'm sort of in that situation now. And I know you've, you've shared a lot. I was like, well, I guess it's my turn.

Kat:

Yeah

Val:

you've shared a lot. You've shared a lot of things that are happening in your life, sort of in real time. And the podcast, things that were not tied up with a bow. And it just so happens that as when we started this podcast, I had gone through a lot of painful things in the recent past, but was kind of feeling good.

Kat:

I know you were like, I'm doing good right now.

Val:

I'm like should

Kat:

like, I was crying all the time and you're like, I'm I'm doing so good. I'll just hold space for your shit. Cat

Val:

Listeners. I did not but I did think like, should I be crying more? Like also, I did come out of like a, a long period of sadness. Right. how weird to say, like, some things got resolved during the pandemic. Right. I feel like I kind of had a breakthrough in sort of my grieving and the trauma around infertility trying to be pregnant. And actually in some ways the issue, the unsolvable issue in our relationship is about

Kat:

you and your husband,

Val:

me and my husband is about his travel. and that even got a reprieve during the pandemic, of course. Right. I got, him home for a while. Actually it took a pandemic for him to stop fully and then when he could travel he still wasn't going as often.

Kat:

Right And for the listeners who maybe don't know like your husband's Brazilian and he has a what international business. He sounds so fancy Yeah. well, like

Val:

he created all this on his own. Right. Like it's very smart and very what's the word?

Kat:

like ambitious Oh resource so sure

Val:

right? Like he actually created a business and actually, this is part of the whole thing. It's like he has a foot in each

Kat:

right

Val:

And actually he said to me on the phone, something to the effect of like, I have a great life with let me maybe not push it and like try to have two great

Kat:

Oh oh yeah.

Val:

Where okay. Listeners, I'm not gonna be able to fill you in, on every single detail. Cuz what I realized was this has been going on for a decade. an unsolvable problem in the middle of that too was well, some

Kat:

well because you want him home more cuz your life together is good and you don't wanna have to be by yourself living life.

Val:

Right actually funny enough at the beginning of 2020 I just kept say I don't, and can't do this anymore. I don't want you gone as much. And I feel like I've done a lot of compromising or the problem solving, like, okay, I'll take my practice online, a video even before the pandemic so I can have some more flexibility and travel with you. And he said, okay, look, give me the year 2020.

Kat:

little, did we know

Val:

little, did he know? Oh, I wish there was one of those voiceovers that our narrators little did he know? I'm like, all right. He goes, just gimme this time to like, get things in place. So don't have to go as often, blah blah. And so yeah, I was already at that place. Right. But yeah, I did have a little bit of a meltdown this weekend and he's, he told me I need to be gone for two weeks, you know, business trying to rebuild the business after he got really hit by the pandemic. So, right. I feel like I'm a very understanding person in general. Right. Okay. I get that. And accepted that, yeah, he's from another country, so this is part of it. But yeah, I had a little bit of a breakdown this weekend of. sadness and my sort of dealings with this problem after about six days. Yeah, I'm good. I have my friends, a pickle ball, the community that communal effervescence, that being connected to something larger than even just your family or friend

Kat:

group. Right right.

Val:

My work, all these things, but after the sixth day and I saw the pattern, I mean, probably even six to eight years ago and shared with him can we come to an understanding, can we come to an agreement that after six days, this intense sadness comes over and I'm done like one week a month. Okay. That's still a

Kat:

lot. It is a lot. It is a lot for

Val:

It's still a lot. And he just was unable to

Kat:

it Yeah

Val:

which blows my mind, honestly. Yeah. But I think I've talked about, I don't know if it's an ADHD trait or not, but it just seems that it's harder to compromise. Once you get an idea in your head, it's like, this is how it should be. Right. Also there's some like freedom stuff and rebel stuff,

Kat:

and yeah

Val:

the freedom. And how do you write the four tendencies? You introduced me to that, but the rebel can't really feel like they're backed into a corner. They need choice. They need a little bit of say on when, and their terms.

Kat:

And I'm sure

Val:

I mean, which just sounds like being an asshole to me.

Kat:

I know. That's so funny. The need for autonomy for the rebel. Like that's my tendency too. So we should just quick say the four tendencies. You can be an obliger. You can be a, what are the other two, Oh, upholder. Those are the rule followers. Oh my God Yeah. And then there's one

Val:

bar

Kat:

Oh my God. Anyway, the book's good. The link is in our show notes. People's

Val:

Yes Yeah. It's really helpful to find your motivation.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was so cool.

Val:

The questioner that's the

Kat:

other one. Oh yeah.

Val:

The questioner, it has to make sense. Like if you wanna follow a rule, like it has to make

Kat:

sense Right You need buy in by asking yeah. And then the obliger is just gonna follow the rules.

Val:

Yes. And they're motivated, if you're trying to get motivation, you're doing it for other people. You have a harder time to do it for yourself. Yeah.

Kat:

I wonder what the overlap is between revels and neurodiversity, because I'm also a revel, but I did all that masking cuz of like the cultural, being raised fem in the world and all those other kinds of things and like the conservative Christianity now stuff. So I did masking as an obliger for years and then like my truest self started manifesting more and more. And I was like yeah, I can't I can't do I have to, I need a lot of

Val:

Yeah. I couldn't respect that even though right. I'm different. Like, but one time his, cousin said to me, Val, for Rafi, it's his way or no way. Oh. And that was a long time ago. And I was like, oh my gosh. Yes. But he also comes off as kind like go with the flow.

Kat:

He does come off that way. But now I know more

Val:

that

Kat:

I'm like seeing different sides of him. And

Val:

it's

Kat:

oh you are, you're a

Val:

It's a paradox.

Kat:

in a Speedo He's a

Val:

paradox

Kat:

in a Speedo you're Brazilian husband.

Val:

Poor guy. And we're gonna talk about medications and psychedelics later, but I got to the point where I was like, this depression would come on for a day or two. That was like, it was a hopelessness. Like I like that dark fog. Am. I gonna really take some kind of medicine just to stay in this marriage, like this feeling that game. Right. And and now actually being okay to decide to not be in a relationship cause it's not working, but there's so much good also in our relationship. Right. So it's this thing. And, and, and so anyway, I was really upset this weekend I think I got to the place where I was like, yeah, I think I know the answer now.

Kat:

Right. Is the answer polyamory Is that what you decided an open marriage really? you need more people to co-regulate with talk about like

Val:

creative problem solving.

Kat:

That's a good creative Wait, you guys, Val is not making eye contact with me.

Val:

so stupid.

Kat:

I just love to on you, you like, you're like, hang with me for a bit and you're like, oh, I'm not gonna look you though.

Val:

pushing me over the

Kat:

I'm not looking I'm not looking at you.

Val:

But he has made promises to me before I've tried. even where I was like, okay, why can't you compromise for seven days? Right? All right, knowing that he loves money. I'm like, Hey look. cuz he also would book tickets and then tell me the wrong day he was coming home because he was afraid. And so I'm like you're coming home tomorrow. Right. And then at the last moment he's like actually no,

Kat:

that's some weird ass I know

Val:

yeah I mean, when I heard that people with ADHD tend to lie more, right? Like not everyone obviously is a blank

Kat:

No not everyone, but yeah. Like my kid who is ADHD, that fucking kid lies and I don't know why I don't lie, but I get defensive. Like when people tease me, like I'm lying. I'm like Uhuh, cuz I'm like, it is I don't know, just a core value of mine that I'm like, I am very truthful.

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

Yeah

Val:

So, so when we went to therapy, I think I brought this up, like, why are you lying? Or he didn't wanna tell me stuff Right. And so, the therapist actually asked me, like, I was the one with the problem. why is truthfulness so important to you? And it was a Christian therapist and we're still going to church. And I just

Kat:

whoa,

Val:

I'm like, I dunno, it's the basics of Christianity. And, and so I, I was like, look,

Kat:

yeah,

Val:

lying will always make it worse, but I'm afraid to tell you the truth of how I fucked up or whatever. Right. Lying will always make it

Kat:

worse. In my mind. Lying is an interruption to intimacy. You can't fully know me if I'm telling you lies. Right.

Val:

Why are you trying to preach right now? Yes, of course. yes. It, it stops trust. Yeah. And safety. Trust and safety. So when he tells me this time, babe, no more two week trips I'm committed to you and our life here. And I was like, well, I hear you, but what happens if you don't? So before, when he would tell me that he wasn't gonna gone as long, I'm like, look, what if I just find you for every day, you're gone over seven days, I get to put money in my like home decor, budget or something. Right. Yeah. Ooh,

Kat:

Did it? I

Val:

I think he felt like

Kat:

he was the revel in him

Val:

Yeah. And then I was like,

Kat:

like

Val:

ah, okay. Forget it.

Kat:

he like,

Val:

anyway, again, it's my money too. It's not like it's his money, but I try to even tried to like put like a tax, a tariff. You wanna be gone longer. Fine. It's gonna cost you

Kat:

Look at all this creative problem solving. You're attacking this unsolvable problem with all this. Creativity's so impressive

Val:

So this time I said, well, what happens? And he's like, look. You know how much I love money. You could take all our assets and leave me I was like, well, I'll do that anyway. No, no, just kidding.

Kat:

OK. he's

Val:

so upset that I told him we wouldn't be like, back in the day, I was like, Facebook friends. If we ever got divorced, I'm like, fuck you. Fuck. No, if we're getting divorced,

Kat:

totally.

Val:

I, I reserved the right to change my mind, but he thinks that's hilarious and he can't understand it. Why can't we be friends after I'm like, because we couldn't be friends inside of a marriage, so fuck you. Go have a fucking great life. I don't know. That's how I feel

Kat:

that's funny.

Val:

reserve the right to totally change

Kat:

that Yeah. Well okay. So my ex-husband, I was like, why can't we be friends? Like, I would love to know like, like his dating adventures. Like, I'd be like down for all that shit. I'd be like his biggest But like, he does at all.

Val:

yeah

Kat:

no, thank you. Nah. And I was like okay.

Val:

So I sort of sent you a polo, just, you know, well, I had been crying, but I had this knowing and I told you it's weird, cuz we've been talking about those knowings that I'm like cap. I believe him. And I actually think that he is going to change this knowing inside of me I have this knowing that I believe him and I, the way he's talking differently, like, and bringing it up, cuz of course, right. That avoidant attachment it's like, let's not talk about it. And when I would want to share what I was feeling, he would try to change the subject. I'm like, you gotta leave room for me to say what I need to say to you. He's listening. Yeah, I know. Yeah. You're right. apologized, which we know that that's difficult for him. Yeah. I'm sorry for hurting you. Sorry for causing you pain. And we were able to talk about it in a different way and I really do think, right. And of course I've done a lot of my own work that this is a lot about him. Right. But of course it could make me question does he really love me

Kat:

Of course Yeah

Val:

have so much evidence that he does. Right. And that intuitive feeling of like, this is real, which we've talked about that on past episodes too, But I, like, I have so much evidence to the contrary, but it's like, well, then what's going on? And I think, poor RAI, I haven't shared this yet on the podcast, but like he was orphaned before he was like in high school. Right. Both of his parents and he was sort of. live with his grandma. And his uncle and just never really having a So I'm sure there's some deep stuff that he hasn't connected to yet. But I think the, the deep sadness for me too, was like, I think I know that if he can't for whatever reason, and I've told him if this is the life, if that really is what you need to do, cuz he also doesn't wanna move to Brazil full time. Cuz sometimes I'm like, well Val, like be reasonable. This man is from another country he's living here in your country. I don't really think I want to be an expat in another country. I love traveling, and he doesn't wanna live there full time either. So it really is this cake and eat it

Kat:

too. Right. Yeah. And you know, as you've talked about like owning your shit and all this, I've seen you like do all this work with boundaries and articulating what your needs are and like getting more I mean, forceful is the word that's coming to mind, but just more like self-assertive right. it's neat to see how, then we have these opportunities to look for our own growth in it, you know, again, when we're like we're dealing with conflict, conflict has this potential opportunity for both parties.

Val:

Yes. And I think that just shedding some of the stuff I use, I think it just becomes clear if that makes sense. What I need, like where my hard boundaries are or being okay with cuz I think there can be a struggle when you're a people pleaser and I was gonna say trauma too. Right. Where you doubt yourself a lot. And so I think maybe I've doubted myself. But I think as it became clear, I think I was grieving cuz I was doing that tired, sad, cry,

Kat:

right this week Yeah

Val:

And I think it was the grieving of oh, but I think I know what I, what I'll have to do if he really can't do it. Oh, does that make

Kat:

makes sense? Yeah. Like if he can't show up for you and like be home as much as you're gonna need him to be home, then what, what you will have to do in order some

Val:

Yeah. And you gave me great language for it too, where you said, well sure. Your co-regulation partner is like gone for like more than 25% of the time. cuz I always think well how do people that, their partners are always traveling., how come is this hard for me? And it also,

Kat:

for

Val:

and it doesn't matter. Like I don't have to compare I really am okay with centering myself and like, this is what I need. what does it

Kat:

makeup their needs are gonna be different, but you're allowed to have your needs, know what they are and communicate them to the people in Yeah,

Val:

Yeah. But I think it goes about like self care. Yeah. And what you

Kat:

Right.

Val:

And are you okay if I read this little poem I found for the end, but I think part of my sadness this week is very well explained

Kat:

this. Okay.

Val:

Because before self love becomes a liberation, it is first a burden. Well, there's the anger at who treated you poorly when you didn't know how to ask for better the anger at yourself for what you've allowed. There's the grief for lost time. There's the strangling necessity to push people, things, ideas out because there's no room for them. There's the loneliness and isolation that accompanies the growth of self there's. The new boundary lines, the new range of the word. No, the opening of eyes that would rather be. And the terrifying realization that love isn't synonymous with joy, it's synonymous with growth And growth isn't bliss. It never was. It was a lie that said love would be white teeth smiles on beaches. The pinnacle of self love is not endless It is a heartbreaking process of undoing the life, your unloved self built brick by unworthy And these words are by Jamie vain.

Kat:

Wow. That's powerful I mean, you listening, you read that and this conversation of course, makes me think about my own marriage and divorce, you know? Yeah And I had to do a lot of the grieving before, before we were even divorced or separated. but you know, in my story, we, couldn't solve a problem because it was I was no longer a Christian and I had tried so hard to make sure that I stayed a Christian because I intuitively knew that if I didn't continue to share the same faith as my former spouse, then that was it. And yeah, so. that was the strangest thing to realize that I sort of knew this really early. I had had this, my dad had died when I was six weeks to dating. with me to Ohio where I grew up and, the funeral with me and was like, it felt so good to have his love And then the grief after And he was like this tangible human that it was a manifestation of love because prior to dating him you know, my whole support was like my friendships. Yes. But I had this relationship with Jesus Christ where he was, you know, this was the culture told us, Jesus Christ was my best friend and was my husband and was God. And you know, all these things

Val:

be enough. Mm-hmm

Kat:

But then I had like a physical person that loved me and like would hold me and like you know, our friendships back then, you know, it's so different. I discovered it was so different than being in a intimate relationship because I was thinking about like, when you're kissing someone or you're just laying in bed, your faces are so, so close. Right. You don't usually get that close with your like platonic friendships, right. Especially not in the world where we came but then that amount of grief ended up being kind of a catalyst for some of my spiritual evolution and. I remember going to therapy right after we got married, because I was like, holy shit. I could feel the ground underneath me. Mm-hmm changing tremendously. And I was like, I just thing. I'd always wanted Mm. Cause I was like, in our worldview, like we both got married sort of late in our worldview, you know, like I was 31. And, and so I'd finally gotten this thing and you know, I absolutely was in love with my, my husband at the time. And so I had to like find a Christian therapist so I could like stay a Christian. Yeah. And like work through all this but it's interesting. The grief and then poem, like the grief of the things that. I had to like wrestle with the fact that, I chose a relationship over my authentic path, you know, and then I had wanted to be a parent too. And so we ended up having kids right away. And so then all of my own development got sort of put on pause as I was, you know, parenting and, you know, it's a whole series of events and a whole bunch of things where I, I was choosing a life that wasn't actually, as in line with who I really, really am. There was a lot of grief around that. And then, you know, I had caused harm because I had agreed to all these things And then when I started to see that, I just couldn't keep participating in it the way that, he had imagined you know, it devastated him. Right That's right. And so I, in, in deciding to end our marriage, I was like home to myself. And then right after we articulated that, you know, our relationship was over. I was like, oh, I'm gay. oh, of course I am. Duh. You know, a lot of people hear the timeline and they assume I, I find out I'm gay and I end the marriage, but that that's not actually what happened. I just realized I wasn't a Christian and I I was noticing that I, I had agreed to the life that he wanted because. I taught to do that, Val. Yeah. You know, we're taught to erase ourselves and to like, you know, the whole codependency thing. Right. And it's not like he didn't make sacrifices too. And I honestly, like, I don't have anything negative to He's like a good person, know, he's got some rigidity in his thinking and he's, you know he's really changed averse. He's got some things that made it hard for us, you know? And this became the, the unsolvable problem.

Val:

Which is

Kat:

felt like I had promised him a Christian life together and a Christian family. Yeah. And I couldn't keep to promise. And so in his mind he said it was really interesting, but he said, it feels like. Adultery to But like that's how betrayal, betrayal

Val:

Yeah. Betrayal

Kat:

because I, I could no longer share his faith. don't have control over that. You know? And that was such a strange, it was really strange to be in a truly unsolvable where I was. you want me to keep denying myself and that feels so bad, right? Yeah. And then again, you got the rebel thing. I was just starting to like, come into myself in a way where I was clear about who I am and what I needed and what resonated with me. And so I was noticing like, I didn't have to be on antidepressants anymore. I was having of depression because I was finally like, oh, this Right? And then for that to not resonate with the person that picked to spend their life with me was incredibly fucking painful. Like I wanted him to, be like yay, look at how happy you are now. Look at all this growth in your

Val:

But, but that worldview tells you that that's the most important thing and that everything else really is nothing.

Kat:

And what he needs is stability. And he needs someone that's gonna be his like partner and working towards the goals that feel resonant to him. And his goals didn't resonate with me And It was strange It was like stuff about like whether or not we save for the kids' college. We don't even know if college is gonna be a thing when our kids, like, you know, like the whole everything felt. And so anyway yeah, he wanted us to be making sacrifices that felt like they were bigger sacrifices to me. Like I just didn't have enough support at home. Yeah. And he was like, we gotta save money for their college. And I was like, I'm depressed all the time. Being home alone with these children, could we maybe like invest in me. Right. And so anyway Yeah. So sometimes the unsolvable problem. Means you walk away. Yeah And, and in my story, I did. And so now there's, there's a lot more unknowns in my life. It's interesting because even as I explore like my own health issues and sometimes those feel like unsolvable problems right Yeah oh I left a lot of security in order to

Val:

like Mm-hmm you

Kat:

sense of you know, and that's just a fascinating trade off, you know?

Val:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And for me the poem, it might seem, it felt a little maybe extreme my circumstances, but I definitely that first I have to choose what feels right for me. Yeah. It was that sadness sooner

Kat:

Mm Not

Val:

before, or it talks about grief of time lost. Why didn't I come to this conclusion earlier? Yeah. Or that time that you speak up louder for like, too much. This shouldn't happen. So

Kat:

well I think about that too, the whole, like being like how, how did I not have access to that? And, you know, and I can, see like, it's the

Val:

Sure, sure.

Kat:

And then, but it helps if we're like, oh, time is a, a construct it's okay This is a little bit vulnerable to share, I think. But like I was thinking about, as soon as we were all vaccinated I was like, I need to date, I'm gonna date everybody. Right. So I went from being. only having one partner is my husband. And then like, I'm gonna do all the things. Right. And so I, I Googled like, what's the average sexual partners that a human being has and I'm really proud of, cause I already passed it. And so like yes, but it felt like a, freedom thing of like, fuck you purity culture. Oh

Val:

yeah, that time you lost. Okay, good. So you've caught up, you've caught up in the time construct the sexual time construct. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. I dunno how I'm gonna pivot out of that back to unsolvable problems. But before we wrap up, though, I wanna talk about the unsolvable problems. And I think in one of the earlier episodes, I talk about the Gottman's who did a lot of research about relationships. And they say that around two thirds, almost 70% of problems in a relationship are unsolvable.

Kat:

That is a lot.

Val:

And I think there is this fun game of is it glass, half empty or full? Like, does that encourage you? Or does that, scare you? And until be honest, when I share that with people, a lot of them are encouraged oh, okay. Like this is actually okay, that there's unsolvable problems. And then it's you're getting more proficient in managing them.

Kat:

Right.

Val:

Getting better at solving the solvable problems in the relationship. Right. The got ones were the first ones that I heard say like that they think people compromise too much in a relationship that's fascinating. And that kinda humbled me, cuz I probably would've said Hey guys, compromise more. Right. And I think because I am a person that loves collaboration. Yeah. Can we can we get to like a place where we're like, oh, okay. Yeah, we can all agree with that. But actually they're saying that you gotta get to the core, the core of what you want, what makes you feel alive, who you are, what you need that you should not compromise on. And to be honest, it was a good lesson for me as well. Because if Rav would've followed my daily regimen of how many days he could be gone, would his company have gotten off the ground and been as successful as it is. And that was a part of him and his journey and what he needed to do. And so I think that that was a good lesson for me too, of you can't always compromise your way out of it. Sometimes it is that okay, if this is what you need to do, am I still in? Yeah. Can I sacrifice for this time? Or how do we manage

Kat:

this? I love the word manage as opposed to solve. Yeah. Because again, if we're saying it's okay, sometimes these are unsolvable like You know, I talk about now a lot in my interpersonal relationships please center yourself you send to yourself and you just communicate that clearly to me and I'm gonna do the same. And then we'll see how we progress. Right. Right. Because my, in my marriage, neither one of us are really doing a great job of that. Right. And so then you find you're still gonna find conflict Yeah Two people centering themselves. You're like, okay So how do we manage

Val:

this? Yep Yeah. Well, and I just had this well, because inside of strict, Christianity divorce is not okay. Right. And so how can you tell people to send to themselves, you have to have all these other rules submit to this one and like absolutely right. So you have to have all these other rules to kind of make it work. Ah, so, here's two things that, come straight from the Gottman's that I love to use with couples when they get into gridlock, they call it gridlock, which I think is a great sort of analogy for that. Right? Like you've used all your tools. This just doesn't seem like we can solve it is to really look for dreams within conflict.

Kat:

Right. What's underneath whatever the

Val:

and I always, tell clients, okay, let's go a level beneath. What could be underneath this? I can give a great example in our lives. intermingled in with the traveling was, my desire to start a family. The dream for him was that he needed to self actualize. He needed to feel like he was a success. Right. He needed to be good at something. Right. And, he wanted to be financially secure before he brought a child into this world. That was his dream within that conflict. Yeah. And then mine was that my family of origins were sort of small and there was some isolation and I wanted more joy. I wanted more communal effervescents

Kat:

Yes

Val:

And so I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna do that for myself. I'm gonna make a big family.

Kat:

Mm-hmm

Val:

And there won't be that loneliness. there'll be so much communal life event. That feels so good. And so he was stopping me from doing that and from creating my own family. Right. and so to be able to connect in an emotional way to the dreams that are inside your partners, their resistance, we talked about resistance last time. Right. And then just really knowing what's important to them and being able to connect on an emotional level about things can be really helpful.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And then, So how do we manage this? The exercise is to, to make two circles, one inside each other. And what you wanna do is find the nucleus, that small circle on the inside and right in there, the things that are, non-negotiables the things that are really that core part of yourself, who you are, what you want, what your values are and make that as small as you can. What really are, think about it. If you're getting value out of your relationship, like, I always say like, I'd like to keep this going like this, my relationship is less of really amazing parts to it. Right. So with that in mind, with the greater goal in mind, like how small can you make that circle? Like, what is really what are nice to haves? Yeah. And what are the things that you can compromise So those things go in the outer circle.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. make sense? Yeah, it does. Now. I just wanna understand why do you want to make the little circle as small as possible?

Val:

Well, I figured you would, you would not like that.

Kat:

I'm like all the freedom, all the freedom

Val:

well, I think it is a great exercise

Kat:

maybe it's about distilling it down to its most essential

Val:

you. Distilling it down. Does that sound better than making

Kat:

audience

Val:

Yeah. Okay. Rebel. Oh fuck you.

Kat:

I know. I'm like can we like, tweak the language here so I can get

Val:

well, and actually that was probably the language I just came up in the moment. So yes. Distill it down. Thank you very much to its essence. Yeah. Right. Is this really a non-negotiable right, right. So yes, maybe the idea isn't to make it as small as possible, but distill it down to the things that you're willing to walk away because you can't get these things.

Kat:

Another, I mean, we talk about core values So that that's just know, articulating again, the process of know the myself, right? Yeah And unfortunately like, even though I was already 30, because of the worldview we were in, I was restricted from knowing as well as I make a lifelong commitment

Val:

I think you did get to a very unsolvable problem. Yeah. Right. That was very unsolvable. I think one of you would really have to change your core values.

Kat:

Right.

Val:

And you know, I was telling you about a great example about this couple who was fighting over money and to one money meant security. Right. And so he really wanted to save. And the other partner had this dream of a family cabin, buying a second home. Right. And they were really fighting over like, well, that seems frivolous. We should be investing blah, blah, blah. Right. And so they were really gridlocked into like what to do with their money. Right. And they looked at dreams within conflict, found that the one partner money really meant security. And there was some things that happened in, in their family, you know wanting to make sure they were stable and you know, that sort of a thing. And for the other partner, there were these dreams about family time and how they wanted to live their life.

Kat:

Right.

Val:

I think it's a really good example of how they did the core circle exercise, where for the partner that wanted the cabin, it was like the idea of a cabin. Yeah. In the woods was in the middle. I really want that. And we have the funds to do it. Yeah. So the other things that were on the side were like, well, maybe it doesn't have to be as big as I thought mm-hmm

Kat:

Mm since

Val:

my partner is really concerned about saving money and that's a value of theirs. Right, right, right. Or maybe it doesn't have to be this timeline that I thought like, I could wait. Yeah. Right. So that can be really helpful to sort of manage. And I think then there is some soothing that goes on. You go to your coping skills. I know that sometimes when I agree to like a trip and I'm like on day three, I'm like, you agreed to this. Right. Like you're, you're still in the window. You're okay. Like, go go play some more. Pickable you come to manage And then we were talking too about even some creative solutions that, are there different ways to solve the problems that we have that feel insolvable?

Kat:

Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't know all the answers obviously, but I think the idea that like, I'm kind of taking away from this, this whole thing is that individual growth can be such a big piece of All of the interpersonal stuff that's happening. Right. And so like, we own as much as we can for ourselves knowing yourself and distilling your, essence of this is what I absolutely need to have. Yeah. For me. And then, you know, finding that in the, the humans in our lives and how to actualize that as best we can. Yeah. So I really love that. We keep coming back to you own what's, yours and they get to own what's theirs. And then you're not saying you are wrong. I'm right. Like that feels like such an important piece of it you are allowed to be different your core values are allowed to be different than mine Yeah Right. And that doesn't make you wrong. And so if we want to maintain an intimate level of relationship We have to then find creative ways to manage, maybe solve, maybe not solve. Yeah But creativity it suddenly, it gets us out of that stuck feeling, right? Yeah. It's funny, cuz you're like, I played all the pick ball and then I was like, am now I'm gonna spend some fucking money. You're finding creative ways to like get some dopamine because your co-regulation partner is still overseas. Yeah. You know And so you're being creative and you're managing in the midst of something, you know? And then you're still having to reconcile well, but he's still is gonna have to like meet me a little closer to this circle because even though I've got all my creativity in the mix. You know, it's still causing harm, right Yeah. Yeah

Val:

And just changing my mind a little bit again, not that he's wrong. It does seem a little wild. I gotta admit to you friends it seems out of the box, like who lives like this? Right. I don't know if it got into our episode about ADHD, but you know, when you're living with someone who's neurodiverse or from a different culture than you are, or just, we tend to like the yin and the yang, we tend to gravitate towards people that are very different than us. And then we spend the next, however many years trying to figure out how to manage it. The way for your relationship to last is to make sure that you're not thinking that you're right. I think I said that in the ADHD episode if you want to continue your relationship and have it thrive. the neurotypical person, can't be like, oh, my way is right. And they're wrong. They have to fix it. Totally. It's different. Yeah. And, and then how do we manage it,

Kat:

right? Yeah, absolutely. And we manage it. We manage our lives. by like centering pleasure and like learning and growing and being willing to evolve and

Val:

Yes. Oh, we, I was laughing. Were you talking about our relationship that we manage our differences?

Kat:

Well, yeah, we do. We do have to it too. I don't

Val:

that's what I was laughing

Kat:

at. you.

Val:

I did say, fuck you cat this

Kat:

morning.

Val:

but it's all working out fine. So see, not wrong, but

Kat:

different. Do you think that you and I are very different? do. I think we have a lot of overlap and

Val:

We do. We do. That's why it's so funny, but we are very different. But I love you so much. Aww. I love our podcast. I love our time together. I love all of our friends slash listeners. And I think that we've talked a lot about all of our three

Kat:

questions we sure did. Good job.

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host