3 Questions with Kat & Val

Recreational Drugs and Healing

• Season 1 • Episode 21

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat:

Hi, Val.

Val:

Oh, is that my dear

Kat:

friends

Val:

KA

Kat:

mm-hmm Hi

Val:

cat, max. Mm-hmm How are you? Oh,

Kat:

Oh I'm a little bit stoned. I think

Val:

Oh, we're starting off with that. You're like, I don't know if I'm gonna mention it.

Kat:

I know, I know it. You create a real safe space for me, so I'll just tell you

Val:

Aw. Even though I'm so bratty

Kat:

too, you know, I like it when you're brat. I've told you

Val:

oh, I keep forgetting Cause I don't like brattiness but yeah, you came to my, you came in and I'm like, cat, are you okay? Are, are something is off with your energy? You're like, I did jokes. I'm like, fuck you. Supposed to be recording today. I need you. I need you sharp cat. I need you on your game. I know. And then I said, I, this is a double bind for me.

Kat:

because if it turns out great, they're like, oh man, she can do shit on

Val:

But then if it doesn't turn out great, I'm still fucked. Cuz it's like, ah, then we don't have a good podcast we can

Kat:

use

Val:

damnit.

Kat:

So I'm experimenting with some micro dosing. Yes. And this is an episode where we're talking about drag. Oh, my God. Remember a while ago, we were like, could you imagine if our like 20 year old selves could see us now? Wow. Oh my gosh. That's right. I know when we were like little tiny babies in Bible college. So I started getting curious about drugs before. Before the pandemic it had been just legalized in in Oakland. Yeah. Where I live. And I was like, well, and I had some friends too, just like on the periphery of like, yeah, I'd probably try marijuana. You know, like if it was legal, I'm curious about it. And I was like, oh,

Val:

Oh,

Kat:

but just real slowly. I was like getting a little curious about it, but we had been.

Val:

very thoroughly

Kat:

indoctrinated. Right? I mean, I was so sure this was like bad, bad, bad.

Val:

just from the church. And then we were in like the eighties and

Kat:

I know the dare.

Val:

yes, just say no,

Kat:

Nancy Reagan. Fuck you Nancy.

Val:

I'm gonna talk about the, the, the show on Netflix, but they, they brought me back to my childhood where they showed the commercial of the hot frying band. This is your brain. And then, and then they open up an egg and it's like, just frying.

Kat:

is your brain on

Val:

This is your brain on drugs.

Kat:

Any questions?

Val:

the one where the dad is so mad at the kid. Cuz he finds some drugs.

Kat:

know this from,

Val:

you dad learned

Kat:

it from

Val:

watching.

Kat:

you.

Val:

So we would like say that to my dad. Sometimes if we are doing

Kat:

something like,

Val:

are your kids doing that? I learned it by watching you.

Kat:

Totally. That's so funny. Oh my okay. So when I was a campus pastor yeah. I worked college campuses and I really loved my job and my students were so cool and eclectic. But one time I was like, hang on the porch at one of the community houses with this like darling boy. And his name is Billy and there was like a canvasser walking by with her like clipboard. And they were trying to, this is in the early two thousands. They were trying to legalize marijuana back in Oregon where I was. And and then like Billy signed it and I was so like, and then like the person walked away and I. Billy don't do drugs. I was so scared for Billy and then literally yesterday, this other former student of mine who was Billy's roommate back then, this, this other person who I just loved so much. They reached out to me. And they're like, how you doing? And I was like, I do drugs now.

Val:

Oh my gosh. That's what's like, Hey, how you doing? I'm

Kat:

Silly, but it just it's that thing of like realizing it, we were in like oppressive systems that were limiting my like exploration and like, you know, freedom to discover. Right. And so now I'm like, yeah, whenever there's something like that, I'm like I do drugs. Yeah. So I have also discovered that since I came out as queer, like queer people do a lot of fucking weed Not all queer people, right? Yeah. So, but it's just funny, cuz like, I feel like my my pandemic experience was sort of interesting in that, like I came out and then we all went underground. Right. Not literally underground, but we all had to stay in our houses. Yes. And. I, I slowly started to like, make some queer community connections and stuff like that. And the first queer person I dated was like a regular marijuana user is someone that would like you. Use it medicinally, but all day to get through the day. Mm. And I was like, wow, that's fascinating. But I hadn't already like deconstructed all of my you know, negative ideas about all that. Right. Wow. And so, and I'm really fortunate too, because by the time was able to like go out in the world and be gay. I had really liked at all the, like the deconstructing around, you know, whether or not that that was right or wrong. So like, I didn't have any internalized homophobia by the time I was like homo Yes, homo. I had really already deconstructed all that. So I felt really fortunate in that that little like cocoon time for me was like a lot of, you know, A lot of stuff got to move around internally so that, you know, once human beings were out in the world and we're all getting vaccinated, I was like, gimme the drugs and gimme the gay people. I would like to date queers. I would like to get high with you all. Yeah. And so, anyway, and then I, I may, I have a friend now who I like have like a legit drug hookup, like that is like a true thing. And so like this person

Val:

wait, wait, wait, I wanna stop you. Cause right before we, we recorded this, you're like, oh, can we get in trouble for talking like this? And then I was like yeah. Who, who are we gonna get in trouble with? You're like, I'm, I don't know. I

Kat:

I just

Val:

I'm I'm high. So I don't know. My

Kat:

I know. Right, right. So anyway This person, like really believes in the Modesto properties

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

of like psychedelics all different kinds. And I've been learning more about it. Like I have at least one good friend who is, you know, two people that I know pretty well who were doing therapy and using ketamine. You know, therapist directed ketamine use. To like, do cool shit. Right? Lots of. healing. The human beings I was spending time with like psychedelics were just something that was part of the conversation a little bit. And I was like, this is very interesting to me. Plus, you know, even though I'm not a Christian anymore, not a Pentecostal or charismatic, I continue to have certain kind of mystical experiences and so my curiosity about psychedelics or, or any other kind of drug was like, whoa, like What kind of cool stuff. Can we experience like feeling connected to like the whole universe and CAS. it just thrills me. So anyway, I was at a queer pool party, cuz that's my favorite thing to do.

Val:

yes,

Kat:

and I was chatting with this, you know, a kind of acquaintance level friend who I just think is a cool person and yeah, they were telling me about like their history with drug use. They've been like someone who experiment. All the drugs have this wealth of knowledge, right. And, and lots of experiential knowledge. And again, I was coming from a place of curiosity and no experience, but also no judgment. So it was such a fun conversation to have both of us have really different paths. Right. And different relationships with it. And then like meet sort of in this middle place where I think like they've probably slowed down their drug use. Right. And whereas I'm like, woo

Val:

it up. better living through chemistry.

Kat:

Yeah. And so they they brought me some powdered, some mushrooms, some magic mushrooms or sys. Am I saying it right. I dunno. And so I just have been microdosing them and yeah. And then I was noticing that I had a few weeks of really hard chronic pain body days. That was it was getting me down, honestly. And it. It felt so scary that like the symptoms were getting more intense and happening more frequently. And I was like, Ooh. And then I was like, oh, it felt like an unsolvable problem to me. Right. And I did reach out and I invited like, you know, the medical community to try and help me. Like I got some tests run. Good job. I know, and then actually my doctor's referring me to some, some specialists, so. Okay. We'll see. But also what, what about if this other thing works, you know, and so yeah, I've been taking like little micro dose. And I feel good. Right. But I, I was like, should I take it this morning? as I was getting ready to come over to you. And it really is when I say microdose, it's really, really tiny. It's like a teensy bit of, of powder of what would fit on just like barely the tip of your finger. And and so I thought it would be fine cuz it's so little, but I got here and you're like you, right. and then we're trying to talk through our outlines and stuff like that. And I was like, Ah, I think I'm gonna be okay. Like when we hit record, I'll probably be fine. Yeah. So

Val:

This where you're asking, like, are we similar or different? We had just had a talk about making outlines and and it wasn't your fault last time. But you were not feeling well last time, but so we're like, okay, how can we problem solve to like really get through these episodes? And then you're like, oh yeah, I just decided to come this

Kat:

know But yeah, I was really sick the last time we did a big record day and then like this time I'm like, and I'm down high

Val:

so, so for different reasons, your brains are

Kat:

outta

Val:

but you're doing gray cat and

Kat:

Oh, thank you.

Val:

the double bind where it's like, fuck, need her to do good. But then if she does, it's like, it'll be no living with her. Oh, we don't. We'll be fine, Mel. We'll be fine. Mm-hmm

Kat:

fine. I know. Like to, well, go ahead.

Val:

Oh, no. I was gonna say my, when you were talking about past experiences, you know, I mean, are we some of the only people that like, didn't see any drugs in college? Like I'm thinking like not one single drug, like people were drinking, they weren't supposed to be drinking. Like

Kat:

I didn't see anyone drink. I saw nothing.

Val:

Then we were hanging out with some good friends of ours and this was not from Bible college, but we would always say like, would you try marijuana? And we went to a church that was okay to drink and dance and stuff. But we're like, yeah. Okay. So we had a packed, like we were all gonna try it together, I don't know why we're like, yeah, we'll close the curtains and we we'll try it. Right. And so we hadn't talked about it in so long and we're, and I'm like, guess what? I take gummies now.

Kat:

Like it's still

Val:

so tame, but they're like, oh, let me see which kind you take. Okay. What's in it. Oh, that's, that's lightweight. That's all you do. Blah, blah, blah. They were like, okay, so we're gonna do a, adult sleepover where,

Kat:

oh, that's

Val:

sleep over so we can do more

Kat:

Do more drugs definitely mean, yeah. I started taking gummies during the pandemic because okay. There was a lot of tension in our pandemic home at

Val:

Oh, sure.

Kat:

my ex hadn't moved out yet. Cuz we didn't know we had broken up, but like the pandemic, no one knew how long it was all gonna last. Right. And so we were just sort of hunkering down, you know? Yeah. but it wasn't fun because it just was all tensiony like, you know,

Val:

it more of like a coping, thing that you used it for?

Kat:

Was in the first like rung of people that were allowed to go back to work. And so he was out during the day sort of. Oh, and then he would take the kids on weekends to go like visit his parents and stuff. So I could have like a little bit of weekend time and yeah. As soon as they would leave, I would take a gummy cuz there was a, week of tension and then I could just be like, Ugh, It would just calm everything and it felt like nice. And I would just watch TV those first months that I would like do it. It was really sporadic still, but it was like, This is helping me. Yeah. And then once, you know, like he had moved out eventually and then, you know, we were sharing time with the kids. And so when I was especially once I was out dating, like, yeah, like it's super fun to me and it'd be like hanging out with people that I enjoy and then we're all just getting high and you're just, I don't know. It just, everyone's a little more like chill and like, we're just talking about whatever and it just feels really fun. It feels communal.

Val:

Yeah. Mm. Hey, KA, before we talk more, Ooh. About drugs

Kat:

drugs

Val:

and what we're learning, what we're learning about drugs.

Kat:

so much. Cool shit,

Val:

I know. Okay. Let's take a little break. Okay.

Kat:

Be right back.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

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Kat:

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Val:

Okay. So you know, cat, I haven't used drugs yet for like coping.

Kat:

Oh, which,

Val:

which I did have that thought in the last episode I talked about just being real sad while my husband was gone and it feels so painful. But I, I did think like, okay, I'm gonna go play some pickle ball. Maybe when I come back, I'll like, have a gummy. See if that just

Kat:

feels Yeah.

Val:

But it was too close to bedtime. I think I was like, I'm knocked

Kat:

Oh. But those were good for sleeping too.

Val:

Well, I don't usually have a problem sleeping, but yeah. I think for me, it's still like a, oh, we're gonna get together

Kat:

It's a party

Val:

It is, it

Kat:

Oh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

I actually didn't even realize I was being judgemental, but I, I think I used to say. I just don't feel like I need it. Yeah. Cause cuz I just feel happy and, and, didn't feel like I needed it. And then I was like, oh, well, I'm judging. Like that other people do need it. Right. And then realizing that, it's not even a thing of need per se, for some people it is. What I'm hearing from you, at least. And from some other friends is like, it's just a preferred state of being. Yeah. If it feels better, let's just be in this state of.

Kat:

being yeah. Well, okay. And then you zoom way out and you look at all of the like, stressors that exist, like. In our world and on our planet. Yeah. Right. And so for those of us who like are highly sensitive people, or again, like if you're neurodiverse or if you have any other like things where there somehow existing. Yeah. There's a state of tension in it.

Val:

yep.

Kat:

And so, and I think maybe that's why in the queer community, I see, you know, a lot of marijuana use. it's a small subset. It's not like I know all queers. There's definitely a lot of sober queers out there that I've, you know, interacted with. So but it just feels nice. It's like a lubricant, it softens the

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

you know, and imagine like a bit of dissonance just for existing. Right. Just being out in the world. And so it just softens that and it's kind of nice. And then like when I wanna use it recreationally, like for fun for, at a party or something like that, then it, it feels very fun to have like this. Altered state of being with other people that are also, I don't know, more silly and more like, yeah. You know, it just it's delightful,

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I wish I did have access to it during some of those darker times I did have with the pain of infertility and, that sort of a thing, like, I think

Kat:

you ever use like, you know, glass of wine or two glasses of wine?

Val:

No,

Kat:

I see. Alcohol's never been a thing for me either. And I don't know if it's just because we never build the tolerance up in college, but like not even one or two, like I can have about half of a drink, whatever it is. Like, even like a Mike's hard.

Val:

lemonade

Kat:

That used to be something that I like, but I could get through about half and I just like, would stop wanting it for whatever reason. Just alcohol's not my thing. Yeah. But then when I was like, oh, weed, this is so much more fun than alcohol ever. was. Cause you know, alcohol's a depressant. And so it would just make me more like tired and lethargic. Yeah. Whereas weed feels like this different kind of lubricant that just makes me feel like,

Val:

Well, I, condition the neighbors to, not be offended. It's funny. Not be offended or to offer me alcohol toward the end of the party, cuz it just makes me tired. But like we have French neighbors and the champagne it's like champagne is just flowing like water and you know, it's. People are drinking. They want everyone to drink. And so I'm like, look just by the end of the night, cuz it, it does feel nice. And maybe I do get a little sillier. I mean, I'm pretty silly. Just like get me around a bunch of people. They're like, no Val needs it at the end of the night. Cuz it makes her tired and I'm fighting the chronic illness

Kat:

Mm-hmm

Val:

the exhaustion so much that it's like, oh I don't, I don't want anything to make me wanna go home early. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. Right. Totally. I get that. You wanna be social, cute extrovert. I love all that,

Val:

but you know, I think speaking of alcohol and you know, zooming out, the narrative in society and what sort of the powers that be, and society have said like how Prevalent alcohol is, like the morality, the judgment we have about marijuana versus alcohol versus,

Kat:

or other psychedelics. Yeah. That were like really villainized. But like, yeah. The research, those are not addictive. These are non-addictive

Val:

So, so you wanna tell em, so if you've seen on Netflix

Kat:

yeah. How to change your brain? Yeah. It's four episodes

Val:

from a book that the sky wrote, I forget his name.

Kat:

We'll we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah. But anyway, like the first one is about L S D. Oh, my gosh, they were doing all this cool research, like in the fifties. And like people were having these amazing breakthroughs, right? Yeah. So they started using it in like therapy settings when it was first discovered. Right. And like really interesting, cool results. But then it starts to get a bit more mainstream and it eventually bleeds into, you know, like we think of acid, which is just LSD, but it bleeds into what we understand is like, you know, hippie culture, whatever. And it was a severe threat to like, you. Capitalism really? Cause there was some chant that they say something like tune in. So it's it's tune in, turn on dropout. Right. And that was this thing that was like, be creating a cultural phenomenon. But again, it was not, controlled and I know that it got a little messy too. Right. And so some regulation is probably a good idea, but they just shut that shit down, you know? And

Val:

even in the episode about the MDMA, when somebody started capitalism yeah. Started to make it available in a mass way. Then the authorities got involved and we're like, wait a minute. And then like, well, we need to give this bad propaganda and, and actually faked MRI.

Kat:

research. Yeah.

Val:

They, they faked MRIs to say that like it was gonna give you holes in your brain. Oh,

Kat:

And the whole, like the egg thing in your brain on drugs, same thing. Right. And it turns out like the, the bad study was like, they showed meth brains, methamphetamines. And as opposed to these other psychedelics that are again non addictive and don't create holes in your brain. But what they do do Val? Yes. Is they like flood your brain with dopamine in a way that. Like we talk a lot about like creative thinking, creative problem solving in our lives. It's like a substance that can create a metaphysical experience. Right. And it's interesting, that little thing, like, you know, tune in, turn on and drop out, Like like it helps you deconstruct from things that aren't actually serving you. Yeah. And you, and I like in the top of this episode, we're talking about all the fucking conditioning. Yeah. That existed in us. Like we were. Fucking good. And now whenever I think about that season in my life, it like turns me off so much. I'm like, Ugh, I was so good. Ugh. I'm still actually good. Like, you know, like pretty altruistic by nature. And, and yet, like I have the freedom to align myself with things that actually resonate with me. Right. As opposed to that, like indoctrination of like fear of being

Val:

Sure, sure. Yeah. The inflexibility right of someone's already done all the thinking for you. So you don't think, right. This is the way things should go. This is good. This is bad. This is the way. And, there's this inflexibility. Cuz we were talking right in the unsolvable problems episode about just creativity and how that could help us when we sort of feel like we're at a roadblock or something seems unsolvable, we can't quote fix it or get relief. Like I could imagine your mind being opened and seeing all these other possibilities. So

Kat:

just a tool, right. It's just a tool. And then again, they're using it in therapy settings. So like, people are talking about psychedelics as like, you know, medicinal herbs. Right. You know, and like, so I think about marijuana or weed and, you know, it feels medicinal in that it absolutely softens all the edge. So like people feel less anxiety and you just feel a different sense of wellbeing, right? Yeah. And then so my limited experience with mushrooms or Cicilline is yeah, it is a different sort of sensation, but it's also like it's is an elevation of like overall wellbeing and it's, it's kind of tricky to articulate, but like I know that a lot of people are using. Instead of pharmaceutical antidepressants. Right. And so I'm just coming off of this like really hard window. I mean, I, it kind of stretches back a bit, you know, like there was a breakup and then like, I've had a lot of hard body things recently. And so yeah, I, I just, wasn't kind of at a place emotionally where I was consistently like, In a, in a positive state of being yeah. Or like a nor neutral that I just, I was sad a lot,

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. And

Kat:

so like, it's been neat to sort of invite some creative problem solving right. And say, okay, well, I don't know, people use this instead of antidepressants. And I haven't enjoyed my experience with antidepressants. They sometimes worked, but you know, side effects were a thing. And, and so I was like, Oh, my God, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna microdose mushrooms and like, see what happens. This life that we live we get to experiment and explore what could work for us, you know, and, and certain psychedelics are illegal in Oakland now. And turns out

Val:

if

Kat:

you guys watch this doc, please watch this documentary. I mean, there's so much really fascinating. Also the war on drugs, fucking political. Yes.

Val:

Fuck you.

Kat:

Thank you. And, and absolutely about oppressing marginalized people in a way that just, how do you feel makes my heart so sad? Yeah, no, I know, but I found it really encouraging. Like we get a lot of bad news, like, you know, just living in the world today, you hear little bits of news. It's mostly feels negative. But as I watched this, I saw lots of evidence to suggest that. Healing is happening more places than I knew. And, and people are, are looking for restorative justice in certain circles. And it made me optimistic like, oh, I think my default is ultimately everything's gonna be okay. But again, when you have a lot of pain and when you're sad a lot, like it, it's hard to hold that. And so it feels really good to be returning to a place where I just feel like, yeah, everything is, is gonna be okay somehow. I don't know

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

But I feel hopeful and it's, you

Val:

maybe it's the, maybe it's the drugs

Kat:

I know but that's why we should all be taking the drugs. I mean, only if

Val:

drugs you are on are, are making you hopeful about the effect of drugs on other people. That's just, no, that's amazing. That's great. You know, In the series this one therapist goes, I was never told in my, master's program that there was all this use of drugs and, stuff. And I was like, oh, you know what I did, I did get that. And that was part of my process too. I think just kind of deconstructing and the establishment, people talk about big pharma. That kind of. False sense of control or safety, right? Oh, these people have our best interest in mind. Yeah. Do they? Oh, they'd never lied to us right. But. I do remember learning that in my program about how marijuana, there weren't really that many bad side effects or anything. There was a war on marijuana back in the day and a lot of it was for money. Yeah. Right. And, for politic

Kat:

galvanizing a political base too. Yeah. Because you can fear monger. Yeah. Right. And then, the pipeline of getting, you know, people of color in the prisons, it's so transparent. Yes. It just it's, it's hard to like, even talk about it without feeling so despondent. Oh.

Val:

And I mean, it it's still happening, right? Like it's, it's still happening, unfortunately.

Kat:

Yeah. I mean, it is, but like it's shifting. And so like, you know, you zoom out enough to see the long view, like again, these documentaries, so it's four episodes. It did a really great job of like explaining all the history of things and where some of these different things have come from it. And these are all, you know, like naturally found. Right. So, you know, we discipline, we all know about that. And then these mushrooms and then They talk about PO a little bit and IASA a little bit Masculine. I'm my God. So I've only tried two drugs. I know like between the two of us, like, I'm like the more like drug

Val:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Kat:

Two drugs. And so like, I wanna try. all the drugs. If they become legal or like, I have safe ways to access them. Like, like it just feels so like enthralling to, to be open to new experiences. Mm-hmm you know, and it was neat again, like, I really hope you'll watch the documentary because they explain how this particular compound, right. Cuz they're chemicals they're found in nature, but. It like floods your brain with opening the other one, floods your brain with serotonin, or they're doing different kinds of things. Right. Right. And what, whatever it is that they're doing in your brain is like, is, is sort of it's healing trauma a lot. It's opening up creative thinking. It's giving most people who have these experiences. They're talking about feeling like connected to the whole world. Right. And so I just feels good to think that we. Have more and more people moving away from individualism, which again is like westernized colonial sort of I ideas, right. That perpetuate capitalism. And so if more and more of us are, are feeling connected to our surroundings in one another, like it just, you can't help, but have those kinds of experiences and not be more and more altruistic. Right.

Val:

And I

Kat:

I think that that's beautiful. I think that's how, one of the ways that consciousness like collective consciousness continues to erase, you know, that, you know, there's more and more ability for me to say you are different than me and you're not wrong. And actually, I love you. I just love you. Right. So, yeah. Be on drugs. Just love everybody.

Val:

Coming from my natural sort of place of the healing and the therapy stuff, I am really also hopeful and excited about the use of right. The continued use or more, or maybe more the mainstream use. The approval of different drugs, like ketamine, think about it, special K like, you know,

Kat:

oh right.

Val:

special K to help with your depression. Right. They're finding it's very, very helpful for depression and anxiety and for, trauma, I even. Heard of someone going to the doctor for I think I'm kind of depressed and they're like, well, do you want ketamine? it's getting offered now. Right. And then there's also therapy, assisted ketamine where, where it can be used for trauma. And so that stuff is very exciting. And then, you're like, okay, Val, you need to at least watch the third episode of the MDMA. And I, thought it was fascinating because. You could access that memory without all of the emotion connected to it. And I, it's sparking my curiosity to learn more about it, right. Because listen, it's in our intro. We're great talkers. So I'm really great at talk therapy. Like let's, process you be heard, right. And seen and witnessed hold space and all the tools but there's things that like are in our bodies that are especially trauma that, that do not respond well to talk therapy, right. Or only to a certain point. So. I've added EMDR to my arsenal of things that I can use. And the purpose of. EMDR is to get these unprocessed memories, unstuck, taking away the charge of the emotion. Right. And you don't really have to talk about it. Right. But it still is distressing for some people as it's kind of getting unstuck and reprocessed, the emotion can be a little bit overwhelming. Mm-hmm but still, it seems like a lot of people find relief from it, but I'm interested in the, the MDM a maybe taking, the pain of the emotional way first. Right. So you can get to it. Right. Which I could imagine for very heightened, you know this heightened emotional response, right. That could. Just unlocking that unsolvable problem. Right? Well, I can't even start talking about yeah. The trauma to heal

Kat:

Right. And, you know, we were talking just the other day about preverbal trauma, you know, mm-hmm and so I haven't had my, my kids this weekend, so that's when I was like, I'm gonna just try, I do this microdosing thing, but I took a bit of a bigger dose. You know, it's still a micro dose, but I took just a little bit more the other morning and I decided to like meditate and I put on one of those sound wave things, you know, that you're talking about.

Val:

Oh yeah. The sound baths, the heart, the chakra sound baths. So funny. You reminded me, I put my hammock up. I need to go have a

Kat:

a Sunday.

Val:

Aw.

Kat:

So anyway, I felt sort of guided that there were some things that were ready to move around. So then what did I do? I created a safe space for myself to, to settle in to whatever it was that was ready to like come through. Right.

Val:

And if you wanna know more about doing that, please go to the episode called reframing resistance. toward the end cat guides, you and how to do this. okay. Please continue.

Kat:

The sound bath was really cool cuz it felt like I was feeling things like that are like deeply in my body all the way through my body. Sort of like, like bubble up to the surface and it looked like. I wanna say dust like particles, there we go. It looked like particles. And then like, I would just like, like swoosh them away and then like, just settle back into more of like this cool sort of relaxed feeling and then more and more would sort of bubble up. So I was laying in bed alone by myself with the music on a little bit high. And then every once in a while I would just lift my hands and just like, sort of almost like doing like I was w. Over my

Val:

body. Mm-hmm

Kat:

I wasn't even really touching my skin, but just sort of like pushing it out, like, okay, we're done with that. And then you and I happened to call, we talked about some podcast stuff, and then all of a sudden I was like crying and telling you about this really old shit that I it's funny, cuz it was happening non cognitively. I I wasn't like aware of what exactly was coming up through. Yeah. Ready to heal itself. Right. Mm-hmm and then all of a sudden you were there. my darling friend. Who's so good at being a talk therapist. All of it just sort of came out and I was like it was like really, really young, young stuff. And boy, I was so grateful to have you to talk to just in like half an hour after and sort of complete that cycle of things that were like wanting to be healed.

Val:

Mm

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

yeah. And we talked about the word preverbal there, like yeah, just that sometimes there's things that, affected us that were before we even had words for it.

Kat:

know. And so it felt really true to me that like the medicinal psychedelic was like helping me access things that I cognitively didn't actually even have access to, you know, and I have been someone. Adamantly trying to be whole and to heal since I was 20 years old, it became like this hyper focus of my life of like recognizing the patterns of my parents and knowing I didn't wanna repeat them. Right. And then Yeah. And so I'm just, I feel so hopeful.

Val:

dear listeners. as you can see, the drugs are working,

Kat:

you're

Val:

This is actually commercial

Kat:

it, a commercial for that documentary. Yeah. Is how to change your brain on Netflix. You

Val:

know what so, so, you know, one of our questions is like, what are you learning? And I was just looking, you know, doing some research about ketamine and the MDMA and. Why they're so helpful. Well, I can speak for sure about the ketamine that it, it strengthens neurotransmitters.

Kat:

Oh yeah.

Val:

That might be a damaged, especially in

Kat:

early

Val:

trauma in early childhood trauma. Wow. You know, we we've talked about the ACEs score before that doctors started. Curious about why certain people have so many health issues, like what what's the root let's get, find the root. Right. That the higher your score was on this early childhood trauma scale, the high they saw the link.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And unfortunately, dear friend, you know, the early childhood trauma stuff is tough.

Kat:

know. I know.

Val:

Yeah it just really affects so much. So I know. Aw,

Kat:

making me feel a little weepy now. Like I I am someone that experience early childhood trauma and, you know, I don't, I don't have any control over that. And you know, here I am in my like mid forties and it feels really good to. To see some of that heal itself, right? Yeah. And to like have support, right? Like there are kind good humans in my life. And then I stumble upon other things that are supportive. Like, oh my God, we were like indoctrinated that, you know, drugs were bad. And then we got to like, leave that and be like, Nope, I'm gonna explore the thing I'm curious about. And so then the thing that I'm curious about is bringing this wholeness, I've been, you know, wanting my whole life and, you know, and I get to. Oh, I, I think I'll tell this part too. I, I, in a meditation, I was feeling real tender and I was noticing that it felt really young. And so the way I practice self-compassion is I just imagine a comfy space and I bring all these like aspects of myself into this space. And so I brought. Baby this baby version of Catherine. And it was like a brand new crawling baby, right? So like in the six, eight month in that window where they're just starting to crawl and I had imagined sort of like the more adult versions of me at various ages. Sort of surrounding the baby in like a circle on a comfy carpet and the little tiny baby Catherine is getting picked up and like nuzzled and snuggled and like looked deeply into their eyes and and then like goes on to the next person. When I can access what the painfulness of that. There, there was some like specific abuse things that were happening in my young childhood, but like I also, the, the emotional thing was like, my parents were trying to survive. And so I didn't ever feel seen, like, and I was a middle child in a kind of chaotic home environment. And so like you were talking about like that long

Val:

gaze,

Kat:

right. and and how we need that and how, how desperately children really need that to like, have someone lovingly look into their eyes with, like, I see you. I love you. I'm here for you. And so. My God, you

Val:

Yeah. I took a just quickly, I took a training from, from these amazing people that work a lot with, childhood trauma. And they just kept talking. That's why I shared it with you. Like they kept talking about the importance of that gaze and how like, healing that is right. To have someone look you in the eye and say you're lovable. This shouldn't have happened to you. You didn't deserve this. You are worthy your whole.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And, and how powerful that was for, for people's healing.

Kat:

Yeah. I just feel so much gratitude. Like, you know, we talk about how much we love our podcast so much. And I'm so grateful because it means I spend so much more time with you. you're so great. and fun to look at. That's amazing.

Val:

this is another one of our, our brand points is that we can be going from like healing your inner child to

Kat:

to like gas in a

Val:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Can I, can I read this? I don't know if this is a good place for us to kind of start winding down, but you know, we're talking about intergenerational trauma. So not just like guys, this is what's. This is what we're stacked up against, right? It's not. Stuff that you remember that we were harmed by, but the things that like happened before we were verbal before, like, you know, our, our prefrontal cortex really knew what to do with it. Right. So it's stored inside of our bodies. and then we even have intergenerational trauma, right? The study of epigenetics, just how that trauma can be passed down into our DNA and what that means for oppressed people and what that means for people where there has been trauma in our bloodlines. Right. So the egg that made you. In your grandmother's body.

Kat:

Mm.

Val:

Right? So then your cells are also affected by even the trauma that your grandmother went through. Right. and so how we really are so connected, and part of self-compassion one of the, the pillars of that too, is how, you know, to access. Self-compassion like, it's not just all on us. Like our independence will be the end of us. I think in west. Their culture. Right? It's it's not so helpful, but just to think about like, it's not just on all on you, like, you're the, some parts of like the family you came from, like the nurture and the nature and the ancestors and all these things. Right. A part of a collective and, and we're all just doing our best. Right. And so to try to get some compassion for yourself in all of that, you're not just the sum of your actions. You're the sum of everything that your people went through. right. So this is from a website about healing intergenerational trauma through ketamine therapy. Okay. This is a little, this is a little

Kat:

drugs,

Val:

intergenerational trauma can have a tremendous often unconscious impact on in individual's mental or physical wellbeing. With the scientific study of epigenetics. We see the ways in which trauma gets inherited in a family. Exploring our unconscious connection to our lineage. A person may gain an understanding of this transgenerational transmissions of trauma based patterns and identify the behaviors, emotions with transgenerational components.

Kat:

Mm.

Val:

the ketamine medicine marries well with the healing intergenerational trauma and generational shame. Mm-hmm Ooh. Mm. I

Kat:

I know

Val:

it acts as an empathogen.

Kat:

empathogen

Val:

Opening the hearts. Yeah. And relaxing logic.

Kat:

Ah,

Val:

Ah, so that a person can connect sincerely, emotionally and heartfully to the the ancestor or to the trauma of a family member that may not have been incurred in their lifetime. Wow. But lingers throughout the lineage. Oh, I'm. Goosebumps, just reading this. A person may use intergenerational trauma healing, ketamine therapy to build compassion, where there was shame and connect with the ancestral resources and resiliencies. And that we know that that's such another important component of healing. Right. Is your resources and your resiliency. And that's just one of the ways, right. That kind of mean can help. Yeah. Us heal some of those things that we don't really have access to right at the, at the surface.

Kat:

And in slightly different ways, all of these things that we've mentioned in the podcast today, like they're all I. Allowing us to access different parts of our brain, really, you know, to turn down like we, we all can picture the brain skin, right? Yeah. Western society told us to really live in our thinking brain. But they're asking us also to live less in our emotional states. Right. Yeah. And so when we just turn the volume down on this one particular part of your brain, that little piece of your brain is not all of you. right, right. So much more. And so it's interesting that these things exist in nature like that the world, the earth provided this for us. Right. That's a fun, like, woo, woo. Way to think of it. You know, like Gaia mother earth, whatever, like has already given us these beautiful tools The documentary too talks about like indigenous peoples and how their relationship with the mushrooms and the guys different psychedelics and even, you know, cactus and used in ritual, ancient long, long, before us, you

Val:

that's one way that, like, I think therapists are trying to decolonize therapy. Yeah. Right. And not just give all the credit to this Western sort of Eurocentric way. But even when I explain bilateral stimulation or the use of bilateral movements to calm you, and that's just like, Where you can tap both sides of your body, right. Or even some of the tapping, the, meridians in your body. This is all from ancient cultures. So we need to give

Kat:

appropriate credit.

Val:

Yeah,

Kat:

We're slowly catching up to things that people already now and then, you know, colonials and try to stamp it all out and they're like always better. And then you're like, oops. Nope, no, it's not. It's awful. Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

So a,

Kat:

Oh, this is a fun episode, Valerie. I know. All right. Healing and drugs and sex and rock and roll motherfuckers.

Val:

You did mention that you were like, I think you and RAI, you know, in the last episode we talked about some of our unsolvable problems you guys should just take some drugs together and I think it would be good for your relationship. So, so tune in, I don't know if it'll be a live stream, but you know, if we do decide to do it, we'll report back.

Kat:

good. That

Val:

good. Okay. We have talked a lot about what we're learning. What's moving around and what's bringing us pleasure. So I think it's time.

Kat:

Yep. I love you, Val.

Val:

I love you too. Bye.

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host