3 Questions with Kat & Val

Deconstructing Depression

• Season 1 • Episode 22

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Kat and Val have each had first hand experience with depression. Add to that, our hosts have spent literal decades trying to understand depression, how it impacts the brain and themselves. Kat and Val bring us all this knowledge and a far amount of warmth  and laughter as they break down this topic. They gift us creative ideas of how to both hold space for it while also allowing depression to move through us.

*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh my

Kat:

Yeah. Oh.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

your friend.

Kat:

Yay. Hi everybody. Oh, I thought you were saying hi to them. You're saying hi to me.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Hi everybody.

Kat:

you guys today. We're gonna talk about depression. Yeah. We're just we're deconstructing. It is what we're doing. We're deconstructing depression.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Sure. Yeah. I

Kat:

I know

Deconstructing Depression_val:

talking about it. We're normalizing it. We're getting the word out to the peoples.

Kat:

Yeah. There's lots of kinds. We're gonna tell you about the kinds

Deconstructing Depression_val:

lots of kinds wants around with you.

Kat:

I think I'm a little slap happy I was outside on your back deck. tell us about living my best

Deconstructing Depression_val:

you pleasure, friend. What's

Kat:

Oh my God. Well, first of all, you offer to make us a capris salads. And I was like, I don't want a salad. Thanks. Yeah. And then you described to me in detail, what you were putting together. And I was like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

like, this bitch doesn't want my

Kat:

salad. I was like, yes, I do. I'm so sorry. And so, and I was like, do you mind if I go sit on your back deck while you work on that? And you're like, yes, go ahead. So you're inside. Making this wonderful capris salad. I took a picture. I'm gonna post it on the Instagram. Oh, that's so good. Why are you so talented at all the things and you make everything beautiful. It's so great.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

it's cuz I'm highly sensitive. It makes me happier to see it all

Kat:

all fancy. So I'm on your bank deck and there's lots of fun sunshine out there. And I spend the summer in pools as much as I possibly can. I, I swim all year round here. We live in California, and my journey with my like body liberation, I have been consistently. Gravitating towards smaller and smaller swimsuits mm-hmm And so, yeah, so now I'm in two piece, like first was in like a two

Deconstructing Depression_val:

must be very

Kat:

exciting. I know. So like, but living in like a non-traditional body, like in a very fat body it's been this journey where like, yeah, so like wearing a two piece was a big deal. so the two piece starts off being like a tankini and like a swim skirt. Right. So it's two pieces, so it's a little less cumbersome than a big old one piece. But then I was like, I just want briefs. This is dumb And so then and then also, like, I just want like a regular bikini top. This is just, you know, it's like a lot of wet fabric, you know? Yes. And so yeah, so anyway, I'm on your back deck and I was. Oh, it's so nice. Oh, the Sunshine's so good. I've been swimming in two pieces, you know, all summer. And I was like, oh, I'm wearing a sports bra. I'm like I'm gonna take my shirt off. I know. And I was like, yeah, I know some of your neighbors, cuz you've had like parties here and the way you're set up is the neighbors can all sort of see each other in this back area. Yeah. And so I was like, I don't mind, I don't mind if these, people I've met once or twice, observe me and just, what would essentially be like a swim top. I was just like vibing out to some like great mellow music. And so I was like, look at me. Oh my God. I'm like so amazing. That just that I felt comfortable. Yeah. And I was getting all this fantastic vitamin D and then I came inside and I ate the most amazing salad. I'm not depressed.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yes. First of all, this, a tie into one of our earlier episodes, sad bitches give vitamin D I thought how perfect that you were on the deck, getting your vitamin D you still got your gummies.

Kat:

I do. I still have them?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

That's so

Kat:

I, them, mm-hmm,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

You know, what's bringing me pleasure is the produce of California.

Kat:

yes.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And so a great heirloom tomato,

Kat:

Oh my gosh. So Goodar.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

some fresh I put some peaches in

Kat:

there. The peaches was the winner. Some

Deconstructing Depression_val:

prou.

Kat:

oh, Jesus

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Or if I was really being Italian, I'd say pro shoot

Kat:

Peruz I love that. you guys missed the hand gesture. I know she did the hand gesture everybody.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

it and then yes, I do. I go all the way to, to Sonoma for this special lemon oil that they, crush the olives and the lemon RHS together.

Kat:

My goodness,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

fig BSO

Kat:

How is this party happening in my mouth right now? It's too much. Goodness. I was so happy.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

it is it's those little pleasures. It's those things we've been talking about.

Kat:

yeah, I know. like

Deconstructing Depression_val:

the seasonality and just it being beautiful.

Kat:

Absolutely.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

It's such a great treat.

Kat:

And then again, for me, like I added the pleasure of feeling really comfortable in my own skin. Oh my God, I, I could take my shirt off. Like that's new.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

a thing.

Kat:

that's that fun? Yeah. it's sweat. So thank you for that amazing lunch. I loved it. Aw, Mm-hmm welcome. to your friends. We're

Deconstructing Depression_val:

about depression and I think neither of us are feeling especially depressed. So maybe like that is helpful. I don't know.

Kat:

Oh yeah. To talk about it when you're not actually depressed. Definitely. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And it's something that, you know, is sort of a, almost a universal experience. Right. So I figured it's

Kat:

human experience to be sad for prolonged period of time.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Okay. I wanna get to commercial now because remember that one time where cat was crying and

Kat:

then I like, let's to commercial.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

How I thought that that was a good

Kat:

idea.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

So now I'm really scared of doing that again, cuz I don't wanna hurt anyone's

Kat:

you. So

Deconstructing Depression_val:

let's get to commercial now, before we start talking about

Kat:

depression, depression,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

we'll be right back.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat:

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Deconstructing Depression_val:

Okay. That was great. So good. We Got that

Kat:

out of the way in there. Hello?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

buy cat's art. It's

Kat:

Aw.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yes,

Kat:

My art made it possible for me to sit in your deck with no shirt on

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yes

Kat:

yeah, it's true. It's true. I love it. Oh yeah. Thank you. That looks so good. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

So depression here we are. Yeah. Well first of all, I guess I wanna say, you know, it is part of the human

Kat:

experience. Absolutely. it

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And if you interact with other cultures in other countries, People in the world are sort of dumbfounded by the American pursuit of happiness or I would say the American sort of fixation

Kat:

happiness. Oh, Right? Well, it's in the constitution, right? oh, it's. I was like, okay, That's funny.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

No, it really is.

Kat:

well, that's why it's, woven into the fabric of, you know, the pursuit of happiness is right. Is that the constitution, whatever we wrote to the, declaration of independence it's in there.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

There we go. Good job. Good job. No,

Kat:

Some old fucking

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Other countries are like, why are Americans, like, what is this fascination?

Kat:

Right. And,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

you know, we've also talked in previous episodes about sort of the negative connotation or stigma that, sort of the quote negative emotions get. Right, right. Yeah. or even how women are told to smile

Kat:

Oh, fuck you. I know.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

or if you're like just kind of grumpy or just not happy people, like, feel like they need to fix

Kat:

it. Yeah. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh, you referenced the book called bittersweet.

Kat:

Mm.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

right.

Kat:

I found it really beautiful to, to have more people having the conversation about holding space for the tender and like when we're good at that. Mm-hmm it, it feels bitter sweet. It feels sweet. And I've had, you know, a number of challenging things happen just in the summer. Right. Mm-hmm and, and to have the humans in my life that I love and care about, like hold space for me as I'm processing, whatever, the hard thing is that I'm dealing with, there is a. Profound sweetness in it. Right. And God, that's so much more appealing. than, you know, what I would say is like a capitalistic driven pursuit of quote unquote happiness, which is, you know, like consumerism and, you know, do more and play hard and all that,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

thing will make you ha buy this thing to make you happy.

Kat:

Totally. Yeah. And I'm not saying that sometimes purchasing things doesn't give us the dopamine hit, like for sure. Yeah. Right. You have that gorgeous shirt Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

cause I was saying, fuck you to my husband. sorry. There's a backstory to that, yeah, no, for sure.

Kat:

Yeah. So I'm not saying that's, that's inherently wrong, but I'm just saying like when we are willing to sit with what's challenging and then share.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

it,

Kat:

With kind people that are emotionally present with us, the, the kind of connection that happens is very sweet and then again, like I talk about this an awful lot, because, you know, depression runs in my family and I've had you know, a lot of firsthand experience with depression. And when I started a deep practice of self-compassion, I noticed that any experience I had of prolonged sadness just was a lot less intense. Like it just didn't I don't know how to explain it, but despair didn't take hold of me. And then the, the few times that I realized I wanted to reach out for some support, like with the doctor and get some prescriptions, it was because the despair. I couldn't cope with it. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Mm, we'll circle back around to sort of the things that have helped you. Yeah. You know, manage that. Cuz you said, some great things there about despair, hopelessness and just what is depression, we started out kind of talking about, you know, sadness is, is sort of a human experience. It is a part of life. Like we're not gonna, avoid that really. And just sort of living of life.

Kat:

You know what, it's also, it's also reflected to us in nature, you know? So like, when you think about like what's dormant in winter and it's darker. There's allegories all around us for like it's okay. That there's death that's weeks and months long. It's okay. That there's this like needing to draw in and and not be like all shiny, like the summer, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And a period where things die, like, and that, that is natural.

Kat:

It's natural. Yeah. And we don't have to war against it. You know,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I've always said our country. In general, doesn't do a great job with grief mourn with death. We don't have a ton of rituals that help us process. Right. I think some other cultures have, many more rituals that can be

Kat:

helpful Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

in just processing that and making it natural

Kat:

and creating some space for it and not demonizing it as though you should avoid this at all cost and right. Yeah. And then You're running away from it, you know, like often in those, you know, dormant times where those dark places, there, there can be some beauty in it,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

okay. So there's, there's some depression that's sort of situational, something terrible happens. There's a death, there's the ending of a relationship difficulties in a relationship job your environment, your neighborhood, your family, your

Kat:

Yeah. Loss of any kind grief of any kind. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And then I think there's also, the kindness may be clinical

Kat:

mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

right. Maybe there, you can't really pinpoint something that would've caused you to be

Kat:

Sure.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Sure. It feels reoccurring. So we call those like major depressive episodes. Right?

Kat:

Yeah. So there's brain chemistry stuff can equal depression that sure. You know, needs some pharmaceutical support. Sure.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

something called this. Well, now it's called dystymia. That is sort of like a low grade depression. Kind of like the EOR feeling, you know, from Wendy, the

Kat:

I do,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Just kind of this low level, which I, I saw someone say, and I love this. That's like, well, you know what? They included EOR,

Kat:

really did. he

Deconstructing Depression_val:

like, sort of bummed out. Right. He was included. And I love

Kat:

they weren't constantly trying to cheer that fucker up, you know,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

weren't. I probably would've tried.

Kat:

They looked for his tail a bunch. I feel like I remember that this tail get lost. Sometimes

Deconstructing Depression_val:

love an inclusive story.

Kat:

I do too. I do too. Those sweet little people.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

You are gonna talk maybe a little bit about postpartum depression. There's also bipolar disorder where your brain kind of goes back and forth between a manic or a hypomanic, episode, and then it kind of swings back to sort of a depression. And then there's depression that comes with chronic illness,

Kat:

course. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Is it co-occurring or are we depressed? Because our bodies aren't working

Kat:

Well, when you're in extended pain, when you're pain for a long time, it is just too hard to keep your morale up. It, it, It takes, it takes a lot from you. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Well then there's the hormonal shifts,

Kat:

mm-hmm right. For people

Deconstructing Depression_val:

have periods and things like there's also PM, D D, which is a very

Kat:

intense

Deconstructing Depression_val:

form of mood swings around your cycle and hormonal changes, right? There's, there's lots of diagnoses that kind of have depression

Kat:

or anxiety

Deconstructing Depression_val:

of linked

Kat:

Oh, wait, isn't depression also linked to men as they age like a drop in testosterone can lead to depression too. Yeah. So it's not just, you know folks assigned female at birth that experience hormonal changes that, that eventually can lead to depression. Yeah. Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I've had this experience of sudden. Moments or periods of despair or

Kat:

like deep sadness that yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

that feel really terrible. They don't last too long. Mm-hmm but it feels like if you're in the bay area of California, that dark

Kat:

fog Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

and you're like, I need to see the fucking sun and I

Kat:

gotta see it. I dunno if

Deconstructing Depression_val:

it'll ever come back

Kat:

out. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And in those moments, I learned to tell myself, Hey, you know, that this doesn't last, go to bed

Kat:

right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And so, you know, I think it's like, oh, am I depressed? Well, But you know, the symptoms, right. It's not just sadness. And that's what I was saying about people who are socialized as male. A lot of times they don't have a connection to the sadness. Yeah. So we are trained, especially

Kat:

with that

Deconstructing Depression_val:

population to look out for other symptoms and not just the classic.

Kat:

What are those symptoms

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Well, the other ones are oh, I might, pronounce this wrong, but the Adonia, where you don't have pleasure anymore and things that used to

Kat:

bring oh, right, sure. Okay.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Loss or change in your appetite less sleep or change in your sleep? Sure. Less motivation

Kat:

mm-hmm concentration

Deconstructing Depression_val:

and what was the other one?

Kat:

Is anger in the mix of that?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

It could be frustration.

Kat:

Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah. Irritability. That is

Kat:

definitely oh, sure.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

changing your sex drive. Right. So all these like changes and it could be a hopelessness. It could be despair, it could be sadness, but it doesn't always have to be.

Kat:

Right, right. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Like I was working with a client recently. Oh, I don't know if I'm super happy, but it's the low motivation

Kat:

and, right. and,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

low energy. And of course, like, there's so many overlaps into

Kat:

all of course things, Right. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

But there's like a real loss in function. Right. Sometimes like you don't even wanna take care of yourself. Oh, totally.

Kat:

the, telltale sign for me. Like when you can't get out of bed. And you know jumping into, like, I did have some bouts of postpartum depression and like I just remember it being so hard to get outta bed and the sensation of overwhelm, you know?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Mm. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah, just the desire to function. just not being very high. yeah, yeah. Dread, I think, dread being a big in the mix there, cuz you know, when my kids were small I was home with them. My ex-husband would be at work a lot that's what it looked like for me. And so like, it could have been related to the hormones around birth, but I felt like it was more situational. Like I stayed postpartum, but it felt situational too, because I just, I felt trapped and stuck. And that the task of caring for two very small kids was mine alone for, you know, 12 hours a day often. Yeah. Unless I went and took them somewhere where there were other people around, right. Again, cuz our culture's not really set up to be, you know, the way it once was, you have a village and you know, you have like your neighbors hanging out with you and you know what I mean? Yeah. So, well,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

we talk about that just for a second? Yeah. I'm, I'm mad at our culture.

Kat:

I know

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I'm mad at our society. Like I do think about that, like the way that we've sectioned off everyone and the way we've sectioned off even work. Right. It's for the most part, either you have to go and get a 40, 50 hour, job or like you're not working or even retirement. Or that if you were raising your kids, back in the back in the day. there's more people

Kat:

around, right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

more communal. Right.

Kat:

Yeah. And obviously that wasn't all perfect either. Right? Women don't have as many options, stuff like that, but what we have done in our culture is we glorified the nuclear family in a way that, you know, it, it's not great for anyone you know, it puts way too much pressure and expectation on, you know, the two parents, if you happen to come from a two parent home and then, you know, you're just, you're isolated more, you know,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I don't like it. I

Kat:

kinda like it.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

We've talked about like starting like a commune, communal living, not a commune. Like, I don't know. We're gonna freeze vegetables and sells out of the road or like have a spiritual component or maybe we

Kat:

will. maybe.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah, I feel like especially RA and I are like made for communal living. Like we love having people around. We definitely love like maybe the other episode you asked me if I, I I would consider polyamory

Kat:

winter. I know

Deconstructing Depression_val:

RA was gone, and I didn't get a chance to say it, but it's like or, or like communal living.

Kat:

yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I don't have to be having sex with

Kat:

those people. Well, you know, what's really funny, Val. It's like every queer person, I know this is their dream fantasy. So everyone is talking about like the queer commune someday, like, yeah. And so I'm like, oh, you guys will fit right in but yeah, like homesteading and like everyone gets to use the skillset that they're good at. Like, I will give haircuts and like help people resolve conflict. That's what I will do. Oh. And I'll do like guided mushroom trips too. I decided that's gonna be one of my like contributions to the commune. Yeah. I can cook soup on soup

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh yes. You had soup day. Okay. I'll be on

Kat:

top, but I'm not gonna be the gardener. That's not my jam. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

no, that's

Kat:

funny.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I feel I experienced some more depression when I am left alone or by myself. Right. Or like going through lonelier seasons of life. Right.

Kat:

Oh yeah. I mean, we can mitigate our experiences of depression when we do the work to know what it is. We need to sort of stay afloat. Right. So you need as an extrovert, you. X amount of social engagement regularly. Right? I do. You know, it can't be

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Vessence I know I need some deep and meaningfuls, I need some people who will laugh, like an idiot with me as my friend

Kat:

does. Right? right. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I do need those

Kat:

Right. And then I noticed like, what was so challenging about this season in my life, where my kids were quite small and I was alone with them a lot is that I was not getting enough alone time. And nor did I have the experience of being autonomous, hardly at all in that window. And so I'm sure that contributed to some of my depressive episodes. Cause I just, I couldn't move freely about the world. constantly having small kids in toe and they, their needs like you're constantly having to give and give and give, and then I just wasn't able to meet my own very well.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I'd say my first episode with some depressed feelings or depressed episode was when I was getting diagnosed With my chronic illness in

Kat:

in college, actually, Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I kind of felt a little zombie,

Kat:

like, mm-hmm, like I

Deconstructing Depression_val:

was like, what is going on? I remember sitting in the cafeteria, just watching friends kind of. Yeah, I really thought I might have to withdraw cause I couldn't focus to write a paper or

Kat:

something. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And then I guess a couple years later with my dad sort of sudden

Kat:

death.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

That was the first and the only time up until this point that I've really taken medication. I was like, I need something.

Kat:

Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I remember my mom saying, I don't like this one cuz it takes away your personality or

Kat:

like I kinda see myself. Sure. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

didn't, I didn't stay on it too

Kat:

long, Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

but, but remember feeling like I need something for this pretty terrible pain. Yeah. This pretty terrible pain. And then, just on and off Coping with with a chronic illness. I, you, funny enough, right? Like dear young listener. if you're there, can you hear me?

Kat:

Can you

Deconstructing Depression_val:

you a little thing that I, like, I wish I could go back and tell my younger

Kat:

self, Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

But it's like the journey, right? We get so caught up in the destination, but I was about to say, you know, I was kind of depressed when I was single for longer than I thought I was supposed to be. Right. I was alone. Am I ever gonna find anyone one, one find me acceptable because of our society's standards and blah, blah, blah. Okay. I was, depressed then. And it's like, and then later on, I'm depressed inside my marriage too.

Kat:

too. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

so dear young listener, enjoy the journey. It is about the journey and not necessarily the destination, right? Yeah. So I had some, sadness there. I don't think I was like clinically depressed at that point, and then I've shared on the podcast that, we went through a time of infertility and trying to have children and just that crossing over with leaving the church. And then my husband's travel and all of that, like that

Kat:

intersection, stuff happens at once a lot. Like, I, I too, like I was like, my dad died and I was newly dating my ex-husband. But also like big deconstruction happening. That's the thing about religious deconstruction or, or what, anything that can feel like an existential crisis. You cannot plan that shit. So when, when my dad died the depression was definitely there, but it was grief. Right. And so it was situational. Grief and depression looked like the same thing often. But I, that was my first real experience with ongoing anxiety. And it was the first time I ever had like really profound social anxiety. So I was at like an event with my ex-husband and I was meeting some of his family members. And it was like at a concerts, and I think I experienced my first ever panic attack while I was there. I just, it felt like the walls were caving in on me. And so, yeah, it's messy, right?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

All those things at once. Yeah. I thought a lot about like, should I go back on medications

Kat:

Mm-hmm Yeah,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

The deep pain and actually our friends would joke, like, we gotta go check on you to make sure you're not in your room with the shades down,

Kat:

on the premise.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And it was kind of a joke, but it wasn't, you know but there was some really deep, like, feel it in your

Kat:

body. Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I don't want my life to be like this. Like I remember like being by the beach or in golden gate park, trying to do my exercise and just walking and balling and

Kat:

just like

Deconstructing Depression_val:

being that person, cuz my, my emotions tend to be. Closer to the surface. When it Wells up, it's very difficult. So I'll be the one like at trader drills, try not

Kat:

show up and cry

Deconstructing Depression_val:

or I, when I was younger and just first moved here, I struggled a little bit on that transition. Right. My first big

Kat:

girl, Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

move. And I used to roller blade at lunchtime through golden gate park.

Kat:

Uhhuh. I remember that.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

but I would cry cuz I

Kat:

I was like, oh,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I'm like, it was probably like the luckiness monster. Did you see the girl who roller blades and cries? Like, did you see her today? Oh my gosh. I saw her last week. whoa, geez.

Kat:

if you were gonna offer that girl compassion, what would you say to her?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I think I'd say you're gonna be okay. Like you're gonna figure it out. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. And, you know, sometimes offering compassion to like younger versions of ourselves. It's not always verbal, I don't know. I just pictured. You giving the girl on roller blades, a hug, you

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh,

Kat:

oh's and just enjoying her that's what I mean when I think about younger selves, right. Me at different ages. It's, that's the thing I wanna give me younger me so much. I just wanna give them some more like knowledge about being in your own body and like yeah. And advocating for your own needs and just the know they self stuff. And so when I think about some of my past experiences with depression, I can see how I'm not experiencing some of those things. Not just cuz I live in a state of self-compassion but also because I deconstructed from systems that were telling me I was wrong, I was bad. Right. Yeah. And so it's hard not to experience depression when the culture you live in is constantly telling you you're wrong. You're bad. You don't belong. You're not good enough. You're not worthy of love. All those kinds of things. You know, that's basically psychological abuse from our culture. Yeah. Right. And so if you're experiencing that, that it's hard not to be depressed, you know?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah. I do think I have a lot less sadness or negative feelings about my body now. Sure.

Kat:

I'm so glad

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I, me

Kat:

too, I know

Deconstructing Depression_val:

also, I told you I was gonna rage. I told you I was gonna rage against the church. about mental health. Cuz I've sat there. know, actually I didn't go to church very long after I, I

Kat:

after became a therapist. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

But you know, to hear people talking about how you shouldn't be anxious or depressed, if you

Kat:

know, there's literally a BI, a Bible verse says, do not be anxious. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I guess having, studied mental health and psychology more. And like having a high empathy situation going on, I just felt like myself in people's shoes were really struggling, I was sitting there thinking or someone who was depressed

Kat:

or anxious,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

really struggling with their mental

Kat:

health.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

then it was like, it's your fault because you should just, you have this access, if you really accessed it, you would be able to cure yourself. Mental health is just, is bigger than that. Could you be healed? Of course. Do you find comfort? Of course, that's part of a job as a mental health practitioner. What's your spiritual beliefs. What are your spiritual practices? How do you find comfort? What does your religion say about this? What does your spiritual

Kat:

beliefs. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

that's very valid, but, to say that we shouldn't have these

Kat:

things Yeah. Because,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Of a higher power, I just think it does more harm. So I'm sorry if you've ever been harmed by

Kat:

the, or yeah. Shamed, right. Shame is a terrible motivator. Shame is destructive in our lives and disruptive,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

So yeah. Let's talk about ways that we've found helpful. Tell me about the ways you've I know you're gonna talk about self-compassion. Yeah,

Kat:

but I was thinking back to when I was first ever experiencing depression you know, I was you know, probably a little bit in college, but mostly in my early twenties is when I started to acknowledge and recognize, oh, I'm depressed or need support. And so saying it out loud to someone, you know, and in my story, someone else who had you know, been going to therapy and we worked together she was saying, Catherine, you seem like you're depressed to me. And I was kind of in denial and also very not in touch with my body back then. Right. Yeah. And so I had resistance to that at first. But eventually I came around and I was like, oh right, this is what depression looks like, and I do need support. And so that was the first time that I like, you know, reached out to get therapy. And then also medication from a doctor. So. I did something you're not really supposed to do those, cuz I, I didn't have my health insurance shit covered really. Oh. And so like when I ran out, I just stopped cold Turkey. I know, I know that was not supposed to do that. But anyway, just so the first step was just acknowledging it to yourself and then seeking help. Right? Oh, yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

that's hard. I, I have been there too.

Kat:

Absolutely.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Because a flood of grief comes in. Like once you admit it, once you acknowledge it, once you see it, then I think that there's, there can be relief, but I think there's

Kat:

it felt like failure too, though, because of what the messages we were getting from our, our subculture, you know? Yeah, there was definitely the idea that if you're sad or in despair, you're failing God somehow.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And failing, maybe even our culture

Kat:

too. Mm-hmm like

Deconstructing Depression_val:

at life. What do you have to be sad about? you should be grateful,

Kat:

right? But as I've gotten older and I spent more time, like exploring healing modalities and different I have acquired quite an arsenal skills. and ways to support myself and ways to seek out support, you know, it's funny cuz we did, we just have the episode about drugs, like that has been such a fun new discovery. Every time I think about it, it just makes me feel excited. And then something you were saying earlier too, like sometimes to have grief, like you're referencing like. Realizing that your life wasn't the way you wanted. And when we feel like stuck or trapped. Yeah. And whatever our life is at that particular time, that can be such good fodder for real depression, right. To feel trapped. Oh, I mean, how do you avoid despair if you're trapped?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

was gonna say if you're trapped, it's gonna lead to despair and

Kat:

is, yeah. Those two are just tough. And so the thing that just feels so fun to me is that like, I feel like I just in the last year are so stumbled on this whole new category of like healing modalities with psychedelics. Right. The research is so fascinating and so thrilling that there's a way to take a substance that's naturally occurring in the world and it just opens your brain up, you know? And so it unstucks, you.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah.

Kat:

It unstucks you Yeah, There's so many things, right? The mindfulness and meditation. I have a lot of friends now who are practicing Buddhist and I've noticed that. My spirituality now is pretty eclectic, but I tend to really resonate with, people that have a deep Buddhist practice. And I have this one friend who just came back from a silent retreat and they like, yeah, they went away for a full week where they're with other people and they're like basic needs are met. But you're, actually not making eye contact with anybody else. And no one is speaking and it's a time of like deeply drawing in and and just allowing, I don't know, allowing kind of. Stillness. And I was asking, I was really curious. I've I've done a silent retreat on my own just for like a weekend I was so fucking chatty right after but never for a whole week, but I was curious how that impacted time. And they had some really interesting to say about how, like, in some ways it felt slow and then some other ways it was faster and it was just, you know, a week is enough time that you like you're in a whole other world, you know, you get into a rhythm in a different, you know, space it's. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I feel like it's my worst

Kat:

nightmare. oh, but that's such a good point. yeah. Cause it's not gonna work for everyone. What, what you're drawn to, or it's gonna feel good to you is not, what's gonna feel good to every.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Thank you for saying that. Cuz I always feel like, again, we talked about it other day, like, like I I'm okay with their being things in this world that I'm afraid of. Like I don't have to. Yeah. I, I I'm okay with being afraid of like jumping out of a plane, I feel like I should be

Kat:

be afraid

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And I don't need to do that. I know what

Kat:

do that. Gravity gravity happens. And the

Deconstructing Depression_val:

silent retreat, right. We've been taught this,

Kat:

we've been taught taught

Deconstructing Depression_val:

in Christianity. And I think in, in our culture that's like anything that, that like you feel like, oh

Kat:

no, Uhhuh,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

the thing you should do because

Kat:

that's just bullshit if you're really supposed to do it, sometimes you have, you have an inner drive that says a yes. Even if it's a little scary, sometimes you might have a yes. If it's scary and then you have to get support around it. But if you really just don't wanna do a thing, don't do the fucking thing.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that, cuz I was like, when you were talking about I'm like that sounds

Kat:

I saw your body language change. I know

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I was trying to sigh really

Kat:

loudly.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Just

Kat:

stop it, but that's the point too, is that these healing modalities, right? Whatever, whatever you feel drawn to, or you feel curious about, like, please try to let that guide you as opposed to external information, right? Yes. So some people are really benefiting from, pharmaceutical drugs, like you and I both have been on antidepressants mm-hmm But I, I really now prefer not being on antidepressants and, and using other things to, to regulate like meditation and my deep practice of self compassion. And then co-regulation is a really big practice of mine. Yeah. You know, and here I am, like, I'm not in a long-term partnership, but I have humans in my life that I can co-regulate with like a few months ago even with my kids, like we had a roommate move.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

in

Kat:

And she's a long time friend and she's just someone that is we're good at co-regulating, you know, it has a really familial energy and I just am so glad not to be home alone, you know, when my kids are away. Yeah, yeah. Or even when my kids are there, like I realized, oh my God, it was such a relief to not be the only fucking adult around, you know, mm-hmm because it's just a different kind of energy. And so, yeah. I was so grateful when I really embraced how valuable co-regulation was as a, a healing modality, you know?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

It is a valid way to, Regulate your mood.

Kat:

Exactly. Human beings, we just need that we're social people, even an introvert needs some amount of co-regulation with someone else, you know? And not having, like, a long term partner, like I've been able to cultivate that within my friend group. And again, that's kind of a cultural idea where we you know, we elevate romantic connections over other kinds of connections. Yeah. And it's a disservice to us really

Deconstructing Depression_val:

well. And I work with a lot of young, CIS hetero women, right. Where it's like, look, you are going to need your girlfriends. And in reality, I think my girlfriends probably calm me down way more. I get a lot more co-regulation from my girlfriends, but yeah, that's just that's culture. Right. That, that elevates

Kat:

that. Oh, totally.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I wanna just point out again, thank you for saying like yeah, just leave everything that just like doesn't serve

Kat:

you. right. Or doesn't resonate in some

Deconstructing Depression_val:

doesn't resonate. And I think that that's, if we're talking about ways that we've dealt with depression, I think giving up things

Kat:

that oh yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

don't serve us.

Kat:

or just don't interest you anymore too. Yeah. Like, you know, this cultural idea that you have to finish what you started. Fuck. All that. I listened to someone like joyfully talk about like the pleasure of quitting shit. And I was like, yes, Yes. Oh, you don't like this one. I can see it on your face.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

no, it's so funny. It's so funny. Cuz of course, right. Cuz the whole ADHD thing is like, can we have a service where people with ADHD like

Kat:

train, train the hobbies

Deconstructing Depression_val:

hobbies shit that they

Kat:

dog. Yeah. right? Yeah. That's so funny. It's really true.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

is funny. So I love it. That you're totally embracing. Like, but no, no, I actually was starting to think like it is true.

Kat:

Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

there, there is this great deep release to quit something and like who says you have to do everything forever,

Kat:

right? I know. Well, okay. That ties into like whether or not you're comfortable with failure. Right. And it's just how you frame something, you know? So like meaning you make. yeah, of course. So like, yeah, I tried something out cuz I was curious about it and then I get into it enough that I'm like, mm, no, it's not, it's not the fit that I thought it was gonna be. So that. It's not wrong.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

No,

Kat:

I didn't fail. No, I just got enough information to be like, yes, pass. And then I had some experiences along the way, you know? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Well, and friends, I guess, you know, we we're on this like self centering self-compassion journey and I know that, well, there's two things, right. There's situations that we're in that maybe aren't good for us a job. Yeah.

Kat:

relationship, a

Deconstructing Depression_val:

a friendship, a partnership, right. Where it was like, Hey, either

Kat:

somebody, a political regime.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh, my

Kat:

Sorry. That's True. Mm-hmm True. I know.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I think allowing ourselves to leave

Kat:

things mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

or reassess our boundaries. Right. can relieve a lot of sadness. Yeah. And then there's things that can't change, like our infertility. I mean, we couldn't change that, like that radical acceptance, working through imagining a different

Kat:

life. Right? Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

finding that creativity we're talking about. Like, can you imagine, and I tell you this, I say this on the podcast that we were still going to church this preacher that we knew he was visiting and I, I respected his ability, like we'd call that prophecy. Yeah. He said a lot of deep shit that I never told him, just about what I was dealing with RAI and

Kat:

just

Deconstructing Depression_val:

like not getting wrapped up in someone else's sadness

Kat:

Oh.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

disappointment. That was really interesting. Then he said something to the effect of like, just hold on. Your life is going to be amazing. Just not what you imagined. Oh

Kat:

wow. So someone prophesied that over you. Yeah. Your life is gonna be amazing, but just not what you imagined.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

just not how you saw it. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

He could, he could say that to everybody.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Fuck. Fuck you. Fuck you,

Kat:

No I'm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

What the fuck? What the

Kat:

I was trying to make IRR joke, but I was thinking about how true that is for all of us.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I think I just scared you over a second. Sorry. That was a little bit for effect, but, well, that's the thing, right?

Kat:

I'm sorry, teasing you a little bit, but I mean, the reason why I'm saying it too, though, is cuz as you're saying that out loud, it resonates with me so much and I'm sure it must resonates with our I'm. sure. Cause we're all

Deconstructing Depression_val:

in church, like if, if someone else gets a word and that resonates with you, like grab it

Kat:

for yourself clean it for yourself or like it

Deconstructing Depression_val:

being said to you too.

Kat:

ran, Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now are you still mad at me?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I am kind of, you ruined my moment fucker. it feels bad in my body right

Kat:

now.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

was such a good moment. Fuck you.

Kat:

What can I do to help?

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I, I don't know. Just let me get over. Just let me rant

Kat:

and

Deconstructing Depression_val:

That's a coping

Kat:

Yeah, You gotta get it out. Oh seriously. It's

Deconstructing Depression_val:

cultural. It feels like very Italian.

Kat:

as.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

very connected to my Italian kids.

Kat:

but if you are depressed, right, again, like coping skill for depression, like ranting and raging. Yes. Would

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Does that feel good?

Kat:

so helpful. Yeah. It's something I have a hard time accessing. Yeah. So it's funny cuz you're like you said that, oh, I scared cat, but like a little bit cause like I, anger is still like a tricky one for me. I just, oh yeah. I don't, you know, there's some anger in my family origin that was unsafe. And so like I, I have a hard time. Really a holding anger towards others, even. It's almost like I'm, you know, so quick to forgive, but I think it's really more of my own discomfort with it. Yeah. So, but a few times in my life I've been able to like rage, right. And like scream into a pillow or something, or like go for a drive, you know? But man, I, again, the thing about depression sometimes can be that like you described it like the heavy fog or you're in that lethargy is having that stuck feeling and so seriously. Thing to try is like rage. You know, like we have a lot of bridges out here in the bay area. And so when my ex-husband finally moved out I would drop the kids off and I would have to cross a bridge. And I started doing this thing for like weeks at a time, even though it was cold outside when I was over the water, I would roll the windows down. How would scream literally as loud as I possibly could. It wasn't always rage, but it was like the most helpful release, you know, there's just a whole year of tension before we finally separated. And So, man, it took a while for that to get outta my body, look at you intuitively knowing what to do

Deconstructing Depression_val:

well, I, I, and I can do a rant and a rave. And so I joke about like that being very like east coast

Kat:

energy and

Deconstructing Depression_val:

like very Italian and very but also my, my dad had a little bit of anger and, and it was like one time. It really scared me, but, but there was like, anger was an okay. But I don't know that I was really allowed to be

Kat:

angry. Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

so it's so it's interesting. I, I do also feel scared

Kat:

of, of anger. Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I that's in that people pleasing is like, I don't wanna feel other people's anger

Kat:

in my body. Right. Oh yeah. that interesting. Mm-hmm yeah. so

Deconstructing Depression_val:

dear friends, if, if you are you know, experiencing one of those seasons.

Kat:

yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Is there something that you need to release or is, is your depression telling you like that this is not okay. What's happening or that you need to change? Or is it something that you need to sort of have that radical acceptance and reimagine something different

Kat:

I wanna say too. I think that step one, it's very helpful. If you always just let step one being radical acceptance, it's just acknowledging it. Right. Mm-hmm like, not that you wanna stay in this state of being forever, but like, this is what's actually

Deconstructing Depression_val:

radically accept that you'll

Kat:

feel your, your reality. Yeah. I am experiencing this, this is the truth and I am not going to pretend it's not, ah, right. sure. Cause it's hard to get any like real help. Yeah. So you start there, like you just acknowledge what's true. Yeah. And you're like, you try to acknowledge it without. Applying morality to it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't judge it. Yeah. Right. And then once I noticed in me, like when I do that, then some creative thinking around it shows Yeah. And then suddenly you, I've noticed it's really possible to just allow yourself to be directed by whatever you're curious about or whatever feels a little bit spacious, you know, and sometimes we talk a lot about like centering pleasure. And so like, is there any little small thing to G give you a little bit of pleasure, you know? Cause you need that little hit of dopamine, a little hit of serotonin. It might be hanging out with a person. It really might be like going shopping. It might be going for a drive and taking the beach way, home, whatever that is. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Whatever. It may be just dopamine, dopamine, get it, get the

Kat:

the hit. Oh, and if you're not there yet, like, this is the other thing again, radical acceptance. So. When I am having a real, like depressed window, I give myself so much spaciousness of like, I know I'd probably feel better if I could get myself outside in the sun, but I can't, I can't yet. And so I wait for enough energy to do the thing. I don't force myself, so I will just binge watch TV. I'll try really hard to feed myself and drink water. Like I really readjust my expectations for myself. Sure. So it's just try to feed yourself. It's not, I'm gonna feel better if I do a, B and C, I don't have access to that yet. And that's actually okay. Yeah. So if I'm really, I stay with where I really am and I own it of like, okay, what do you have access to? And it's very, very little and I'm like, okay, Catherine, let's just try to make sure we eat some food. Yeah. Right. And actually I have in my home I have these like a protein shake, you know? And it's, it has nothing to do with like trying to be on a diet it's because often I don't have access. Yeah. To feeding myself well. Yeah. And some of that's the ADHD and some of it's the chronic illness. Well, there's lots of overlap here, but when I'm sad, when there's been a lot of grief in my life, in the last several weeks. I have figured out like, have some easy shit around to just put in your body, cuz it's hard to feed yourself and that's okay too, because I've learned to trust that that state is not a forever state mm-hmm you know? And so yeah, I know we're talking about all these things that are helpful, but I'm realizing that like, I, I can't even do those things

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh, sure.

Kat:

takes a while to get up to that.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

one, one of the ways that we do work with people with depression is to break everything down into incredibly

Kat:

small Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, Right. Mm-hmm

Deconstructing Depression_val:

maybe it's not even a full shower. Maybe it's

Kat:

like, oh yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

brush your teeth or wash your face or can you drink some water today? Right. Like

Kat:

also think you

Deconstructing Depression_val:

down into very small

Kat:

bit, very small. And sometimes you skip the shower for a lot of days. That is

Deconstructing Depression_val:

yeah. Oh yeah.

Kat:

The wall's not gonna end mm-hmm no. And don't clean your house and don't do your laundry. The world does not end.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

And then asking what would feel better? Yeah. Right. Sometimes right. Again, it's like going back to being in your body, asking yourself what is good right now. Because for some people, especially being an extrovert,

Kat:

mm-hmm I

Deconstructing Depression_val:

do try and force myself, not all the time. Right. But if I'm not feeling well, I'll be like, Force yourself to go, right. Because you know, through trial and error yeah. That it's better to go or like just sit outside, you don't have to walk or go anywhere. Right. Right. You know what I'm saying?

Kat:

because you figure that out because again, that's tailored specifically to you. Yep. And again, when I give advice to people, that's the thing. I just, I feel so strongly about cuz I I don't think there is a one size fits. All right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

No. And we're listing so many things cuz it's like, well maybe one of'em might appeal to you,

Kat:

whatever feels shiny to you of them I

Deconstructing Depression_val:

be like, fuck you

Kat:

guys

Deconstructing Depression_val:

you

Kat:

no, they're not saying that they love us.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

they do? I think so

Kat:

We only get positive feedback from our listeners. So we're so lucky.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I will say, you know, not to be a bossy bitch, but I do wanna add these things just again, throwing them out just in case you're like, oh yeah. well, you know, we have a whole episode called sad bitch. Just get vitamin D. Yeah. I, I don't know how, I didn't know this, but how vitamin D is really so impactful in your mood and in pain. Like I was having some soreness that all went away literally like a day or two after I started

Kat:

Gosh, that's amazing. Its so wild. Like

Deconstructing Depression_val:

how come? I didn't know this. And I, I do wanna talk about exercise. Sometimes that is way just off the

Kat:

table, Sure.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

yeah. But, and I talk about this, maybe even aspirationally, cuz it took me a long time. The first time you, exercise or you realize, oh, exercise actually changed my mood or it took away my anxiety or my body's not shaking

Kat:

it. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Right. So we're reclaiming it and taking it back from like all the diet culture bullshit. Right. And then we're saying like, oh I can actually use it as a self-regulation

Kat:

tool Yeah. Or even pleasure, like movement can be pleasure. Right? Yeah. I go to the pool as often as I can because it's pleasure. But it's specifically me recognizing that this kind of movement doesn't hurt my body almost always makes me feel so much better. Increases my mood always. Right.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Well, I'm bringing it all the way back around. You know, we talk about like how to manage emotion. We talk about we've talked about emotion surfing, right? Just how seeing emotions as a wave. Right. And that waves, never just stay the same. They ebb and flow. Right. They're not gonna be here for, and just, can we tolerate that distress? If you have your self soothing tools, can you tolerate like, okay, this is gonna be sad

Kat:

today right? Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

It's not gonna be here

Kat:

forever. Yeah. Oh my God. What if you could make sad day lists, you know of like maybe when you're not super sad, okay. It's a sad day. And then you, you almost turn it into a game. I'm like, I'm gonna stay in my bed for seven extra hours. Like, like, can I make it seven hours? You know what I mean? Like oh, it's a sad day. Like just recognizing, and again, trying to address it with non-judgment. So then you just, when you're just a little irreverent with it. it. can be so helpful. yeah. And then okay, so it's acceptance. And then like that little tweak of like, okay, I'm gonna be irreverent about this. And so you know, it could be a shorthand in your like circle of, of humans, right? Like, Hey, it's a sad day. And so you send a text to these, you know, handful of people, it's a sad day. And so like, you're not gonna talk to them and they, they all know they're fine. Right. Mm-hmm and then you're like, and they know maybe to send you like what they're watching on TV. Right? Yeah. Like, Hey, it's a sad day, you

Deconstructing Depression_val:

but I love that our culture's already done that with the Sunday scaries.

Kat:

Oh, yes. Right. Like totally

Deconstructing Depression_val:

talking about that, like Sunday night that like anxiety, that weird feeling you get

Kat:

fucking

Deconstructing Depression_val:

yeah. Weekends over Mondays coming the Sunday scaries. I love that. Like, there's a shorthand for that. Right. And we just kind of, when you talk about it again, shame, how do, how do we sort of eradicate shame by sharing it with someone else? Right. Kind of the same thing. Yeah. Just kind of, oh, I guess this summertime sadness,

Kat:

right? Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Sad girl. Sad girl,

Kat:

summer sad girl, summer

Deconstructing Depression_val:

and I guess, I guess I wanna wrap up my stuff with this. can we. Also allow just these periods

Deconstructing Depression_music:

time

Deconstructing Depression_val:

without not being able to tolerate them and be like, I shouldn't ever be

Kat:

sad. Yeah.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Yeah. So that doesn't get stuffed down in our

Kat:

body Exactly.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

then other weird things happen. Right. It comes out in other ways, but just moving through it.

Kat:

Right. Oh, you're so smart. Val.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

cat.

Kat:

Are you still mad at me? No. Oh, good. no.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

I'm over it. Wait, let me think about it. Oh yeah. I'm mad about it. Still. Fuck.

Kat:

You don't even remember what it was. Do you remember? of course Oh, do.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Oh, of course I do. You've

Kat:

I've already forgotten. Yeah. I

Deconstructing Depression_val:

my husband, unfortunately, you married someone with an incredibly good memory. Fuck you. Ah, well, we already talked about what's bringing us'

Kat:

pleasure. I Know,

Deconstructing Depression_val:

know. And so I think that we just have to say goodbye.

Kat:

okay. I just wanna say, do drugs.

Deconstructing Depression_val:

upset.

Kat:

you haven't listened to

Deconstructing Depression_val:

Okay. Cat,

Kat:

objects I love you I love you so

Deconstructing Depression_val:

so much until next time. Bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Valerie DiLuggo

Host
Head Shot

Kat Max

Co-host