3 Questions with Kat & Val

Navigating Anxiety

• Season 1 • Episode 23

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat:

Yay. Hello? Val

Val:

you're here.

Kat:

Mm Yes I brought a small human with me,

Val:

did You're small. Human is just

Kat:

yeah. Chill. Yeah. Happily, because you know, you give a kid media. here you go. Headphones. Here you go

Val:

Treat treats. Ooh. Well, speaking of my

Kat:

you're full size human

Val:

back. Yeah. Full size human he's back

Kat:

it's not like a snack size RKA is kind of a

Val:

Oh my gosh.

Kat:

Right. So we had an episode where he was away for too long. Yeah. Right. Yep. And how's reentry been, cuz he's back now,

Val:

You know, it's, it's been good. I, I was joking with you that I was gonna end the episode, like with tune in next time folks, to see

Kat:

I think you do say something like that. Did I,

Val:

I

Kat:

Or maybe it was in the drug episode where you're like, maybe we're gonna do drugs. We'll let you know

Val:

That's right. Yep. That's right. No drugs

Kat:

yet. For someone who might not know we're referencing the episode called unsolvable problems and the unsolvable problem is simply refi travels for work a lot longer than feels comfortable for you,

Val:

Right. Yeah. And it's kind of intermixed with like his family's there. Sure. Right. And it's been going on a long time. We've done a lot of creative things or tried to figure it out. Love is a decision and it is, it, it is a decision to stay in a partnership. Right. But love is also a feeling it could be intense or and, and the other night we were coming back from somewhere, I'm like, babe, we really do have something good don't we like, we really do have a good life together. Don't we? And he goes, yeah. And he had just said that to me a couple days ago. Right. And he's like, yeah. And he looks at me. But I missed my family. I was like, fuck you. And I was like, dude, did you really just, he tried to change the subject. I'm like, dude.

Kat:

mm-hmm

Val:

he's like, but I really wanna make sure you understand how hard it is to, and I'm like, we've had conversations. I get

Kat:

it. Yeah.

Val:

I, do really get it. And also you don't wanna live in Brazil,

Kat:

Right

Val:

so you've already made it tough to say

Kat:

right. And so really it's like him, holding the tension and not asking you to hold the tension quite as much too. Right. So what does that make any sense? Like, these are the choices that he's made, but then because he made that choice, then it has this like deep impact on you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And how much of that is your responsibility to hold versus be like, that was your choice, dude.

Val:

But then when you're, partnered up with someone it's in some ways becomes your problem, and sometimes we work on that problem together and sometimes you've got to manage that, those feelings on your own as well. I get it. And also here we are. So then, I think it was more of maybe an ADHD thing of just like, you know, Ruining the moment. Sorry.

Kat:

talking about us. You can't bring your fucking family up. That's hilarious.

Val:

Can you just let me have this moment, like,

Kat:

and like stay present in this

Val:

I'm trying to express, something to you. Right. And I mean, I've probably done that to him a million times too. Right. So, I think it's only fair, but then later he's like, no, babe, We really do have a good life together. So, so there we go. That's the update from

Kat:

the unsolvable problems.

Val:

the unsolvable problems.

Kat:

We're just assuming listeners, you're listening to every fucking podcast we put out we would love that if that were true.

Val:

And then remember it

Kat:

Oh exactly right. Yeah.

Val:

this is our lives.

Kat:

Like we,

Val:

we barely remember it.

Kat:

So, that you know,

Val:

so if we are repeating or referencing back, you know, for, for all of you who are like really falling along, we're your favorite soap opera please forgive us for those, duplications,

Kat:

Yeah Oh

Val:

how are you doing KA?

Kat:

Oh my gosh. I'm doing okay I'm on an upswing, which I'm pretty grateful for. Yeah. A couple episodes ago we talked about drugs and so that was kind of exciting, but like I've been microdosing and it seems to be helpful, like I'm microdosing CIL, which is, you know, mushroom powder and it is working the way like an antidepressant would work in that it sort of just gives, give me a sense of general wellbeing and then just like a bit of uptick in my energy level, which oh my goodness. Such a fucking

Val:

yes yay.

Kat:

And then, you know so my health stuff is coming along. I think that I've developed an intolerance to gluten, so I've been sort of staying away from gluten and then I learned about this amazing treat from you. I learned it from you, Val.

Val:

learned it by watching you.

Kat:

yeah. So your husband's Brazilian and then at one of your parties, you serve these little like Brazilian cheese breads that are made from tapioca flour and cheese, and they're like stupid, delicious. Chewy and crispy and savory, they're like, just so good. So, you know, like gluten is in a lot of wonderful treats and I, I don't think that food is moral, so I just enjoy whatever I enjoy. But of course I don't wanna feel so sick. Like I'm dying. Yeah. So I'm like, oh, these little cheese bread things are like, just the best thing. So I brought some to you today and we had some while we were setting up and stuff. Yeah. So that's so fun. Oh, and I'm still meeting with like a specialist to, determine if there's any like additional diagnosis or if it's just a sensitivity or what it might be. Yeah, it was kind of a rough road for a little while and I'm, I'm on the upswing mm-hmm sometimes you're not totally aware of how, like far gone you are until you start to feel a little better Again you're like hundred percent. Oh my God. How did I even survive all that? Yes. Oh, So I'm getting a little perspective

Val:

Oh, today. We, we talked about depression right. We're going in for anxiety now. yeah,

Kat:

let's get

Val:

Let's get into it. Ah well I figured we first just talk about our own experiences with anxiety. Yeah. You wanna go first?

Kat:

you were telling me that, like, you didn't notice anxiety as part of your life when you're younger and that's really true for me too. Like, I didn't have language for it. I didn't know. It was a thing. I may have been experiencing it, but I mean, it was sort of lost in, I spent most of my childhood pretty numb, because of childhood trauma and stuff, just like a coping mechanism just turned everything off. Yeah. But then once I was like away from my family origin, I was, you know, we were in Bible college together. Everything felt fun. Right. I mean, even though like, it's so funny, cuz I think of it now it's kind of like oppressive worldview. Right. But I was like, but Bible college was kind of fun, you know? Cause you're around all these people that are your age and just like, people are fun

Val:

You know, why too, because you know, there's a verse in the Bible that talks about you're an alien among people. Right. And I really felt that I really felt different, right. Because of the things my parents wanted us to not do. So you felt very othered, And then, unless you went to a larger church yeah. You didn't have a lot of friends that understood everything. So, so I think it was just a big playground. And since we were all like, yep, these are the rules, like yep. We're following them for the Lord.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

then it was sort of like, yeah. Okay. We have these boundaries, but everyone's follow'em and everyone's happy. And you have all these friends. It was a lovely time in some some,

Kat:

ways I do have fond memories too.

Val:

I was gonna say that I didn't realize I had anxiety until I went to grad school and started to study it. And right before that I had taken a trip. I had a friend who was working in Shanghai, Beijing, and she's like, come on over. So I spent time with her and I actually think it was a mixture of really bad jet lag. Oh. And anxiety. And I was going through a, a rough time. We had just left the church and none of the nights could I sleep? I wish I had some drugs or even just some melatonin at that point. And I was like heart palpitations. And I was like, trying to time my heart. Was I having a heart attack? So I think it was having some panic and some anxiety that once, like you see the list of physical symptoms of anxiety, I'm like, oh my gosh, I was just anxious. And I needed to sleep probably

Kat:

Oh yeah.

Val:

it was, it was really terrible. And then I look back and I think, well, was I anxious as a kid? I had stomach aches. You know, you went to the nurse a lot for stomach aches. Like maybe that was little anxiety. And then I had, even though I don't remember dreams now, I had a lot of reoccurring dreams where like things happen to my parents. And then of course, I didn't wanna tell them But like I had dreams about them dying,

Kat:

Yeah

Val:

but I don't remember worrying as a kid

Kat:

Or catastrophizing isn't that what you told me Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

I don't really remember that. But then after realizing I'm like, oh yeah, I think I have way more anxiety now. And you and I were just talking about well, why, why would that be?

Kat:

Yeah. Is it because we're like more aware of our own mortality or like. Or we just, we're more self-aware maybe too,

Val:

Like, are the stakes higher? are the stakes higher? We're adults now? Like what's

Kat:

happening Oh yeah You have a lot more actual responsibilities Yeah. Yeah Being a kid.

Val:

Yeah. Or we were talking about chronic illness, right? If you Google it, oh, chronic illness can cause depression and anxiety. Is it chicken or egg? Does that just come along as a bonus or are we anxious or depressed about the pain? Of course. Right. Yeah. and you were talking about like, yeah, we just have more to be anxious

Kat:

about pain is so debilitating in all the possible ways. You know, if it's chronic and ongoing, it's hard to stay upbeat you know? Yeah. And then I was noticing like, My first awareness that I was like, truly anxious it was mixed in with the grief of my, dad dying. So I was, 29 and I just was finally aware of depression, anxiety as things that we're talking about regularly. And then you know, my mother, I had seen my mother live through lots of like panic attacks and things like that. And so I, I experienced one while I was like out in public with my then boyfriend now ex-husband and I just couldn't bear to be out in public around human beings. And it was just such a, like a, this overwhelming sensation of, of kind of like panic, right? Yeah. And and I did the need to flee and I felt trapped it was really terribly uncomfortable. And then since then, you know, as my chronic illness progressed, like I, I live with pain. And so like, my mobility is pre limited, so I can't walk or stand for too long without, without it being like dramatic pain. I have more like testing to do with the doctor, but like, because of COVID they moved out of the seating out of this one particular area or the lab where you would, you had to wait in line. And so it's just interesting. Like I have to think about way more stuff than I used to have to think about, like where can I park? Right. Cause it's a big parking structure and then to get from the parking garage and to the elevator, to the lab. And then like before I can talk to a person, you gotta wait in line before you can talk to a person and say, I need a seat and that's too much. And it gives me anxiety. So I have to go like super fucking early first thing in the morning. There's no line. Mm. And so like, you can create some work rounds, but God damnit, I can't do this thing for my own. Selfcare without. Fully knowing I will experience physical pain. Right. Because they don't, they're not accommodating what my needs are. So like my ongoing anxiety is often that it's like, I will be in pain if I don't know where all the seats are gonna be. Cuz I'll have to sit down.

Val:

I, I used to be very anxious on Saturday nights because, you know, Sunday was my Workday at church and I was leading worship in, in heels with chronic pain. Right. Standing for like

Kat:

what the fuck you stayed in heels that whole time.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

Foul.

Val:

Well, it wasn't as painful as it is now. it was, it was still uh

Kat:

all my heels. I don't even have them anymore

Val:

We used to do, a service in the morning and a service at night and it's that, pain that you feel like you shouldn't be functioning, but you try. And when we would do anything on Saturday nights, I would be really upset and anxious about it. I had told RAI and I'm like, well, I'm just worried that if I do too much tonight, and at the moment he had a good, reframe for me that I hadn't thought about. That was helpful. And yeah, I think as you get older, the stakes get higher. I mean, there's a lot of talk about just the state of our world climate change, making

Kat:

kids Oh yeah Just

Val:

that we're, exposed to so much news media. the internet and, you know, technology has like opened up the world so much. I mean, was just so affirming to read somewhere on social media that someone was like pointing out. We were not meant to hold this much tragedy or news around the world. It's just too much. So, so maybe that's why we're all a little more anxious too.

Kat:

Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. So what do we do now? Val? I'm like suddenly I don't feel as good in my body as I did 10 minutes ago. how about we like break for commercial and we'll come back.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

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Kat:

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Val:

Okay. We're back. Did you, did you miss this? Were you anxiously

Kat:

awaiting? Yeah.

Val:

Our return.

Kat:

Alright, so here we go.

Val:

So I should just also say, I work a lot with anxiety more than I honestly, more than depression in

Kat:

my practice.

Val:

So, so I'm talking about anxiety day in and

Kat:

yeah out, Sure

Val:

And applying most of it to my own life

Kat:

lifetime

Val:

is really, really helpful. Good job. But I wanna talk about a concept called anticipatory anxiety, right? You maybe have heard it before, right? We've talked about radical acceptance on this podcast that just there's gonna be suffering in life, but we there's ways that we can reduce suffering. Right. The part of the suffering that we're we're in control of, and there are things let's just validate that there are things in this world that are very troubling and a lot of our concerns are very valid. Right. And so just recognizing. The anticipatory anxiety, and it's almost like you can anticipate the anxiety you're going to

Kat:

Right. Yeah. totally

Val:

So, so sort of noticing it, finding ways to soothe yourself distract. Right. So that you're not adding anxiety on top of anxiety. Which really is what a panic attack is. Yeah. It's when you start to worry about anxious symptoms and then that kind of sends you into a state that feels really, really terrible.

Kat:

Sure. Yeah.

Val:

But I thought first we'd zoom out. Mm-hmm and I was like, okay, what's Katherine gonna talk about anxiety. And I don't know why I was thinking about this, but I'm like, you know, the way Katherine deals with anxiety is she's zoomed out and has been like,

Kat:

Non-attachment to outcome. Yeah. Well, okay. So it's part of my spiritual practice, right? Is like some of these kind of Buddhist concepts mm-hmm right. So like non-judgment is a good one. Right. And then, so then you apply that to yourself. Right? So I notice that mitigates my own anxiety when I'm not worried about my performance in a, B or C, cuz I am gonna accept and love myself regardless. Right. So I don't judge myself harshly, but then the other one is like non-attachment to outcome, which I'm not perfect at at all, but like

Val:

but

Kat:

it does mitigate anxiety too, when you're like, I'm gonna be present with whatever, right. This is gonna go, however, it's gonna go. I might, you know, I might be able to try my best or something, but like, I'm not going to try to like grasp tightly and control the outcome. I'm not interested in being a puppet master for my own life or for the humans that are close to me. That doesn't feel good at all. That makes me feel anxious.

Val:

Right? Mm.

Kat:

Cause we actually can't control shit.

Val:

Ooh. Well, that's a big one. Yeah. That is a big one is control. Right.

Kat:

Or the illusion of control

Val:

there you The illusion of control so I think there's lots of tools that we can implement in the moment. But right now we're talking about sort of these outlooks and views and philosophies, right. That I think shifting them. Right. And just looking at that can be really helpful. So looking at control, and I think a lot of anxiety is to try to keep in control and like, I would love to validate if you're out there. Like we can talk about the roots of anxiety. Sure. It could be genetic that could be really run in your family or your household was run by a lot of anxious people. right.

Kat:

Or it might have been chaotic. And so that created anxiety in you.

Val:

or traumatic Right So there might be some reasons why you started to go, okay. I need to be the grown up here or, Hey, I can't just kind of take it easy

Kat:

or I can't trust other people, so I gotta do it all myself. Right. That's a thing too, for

Val:

And again, I feel like we partner up with people it's the yin and the a right. But I married someone that is very impulsive and More fly by the seat of their pants And especially when I was younger, it was a lot more rigidity, like.

Kat:

oh yeah.

Val:

well, that's not how things are done. why can't we do this? I don't know. No one does it

Kat:

way.

Val:

Right. That's just how my brain

Kat:

was. Mm-hmm

Val:

I've opened up. Right. So so because I was able to have a little bit of openness. Yeah. I think that my way of seeing things has really been shifted by him. Right. And just being able to be well, this. Weird, but okay.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

or it's different or unexpected. Right. But I was noticing my control and so my husband you know, is kind of a, a serial entrepreneur. And I I had a friend who goes, so have you finally just accepted that about him oh God, for the life of me, I was like, please just have a W2 form.

Kat:

mm.

Val:

please just have a job that like, right. Because security was so important. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. We're not moralizing or judging that, but then you were talking to me about like sort of the illusion of control. Yeah. Holding things more loosely. Right. Not becoming as attached. Right. Asking the deeper questions of like, why, why does that feel so important? And a lot of that

Kat:

mm-hmm

Val:

right. Has to do with the shoulds.

Kat:

right? Yeah.

Val:

That we've been told we should have Right. Whether that comes from religion culture, our cultures of origin, capitalism, wide supremacy, like all of that Yeah. All the systems that tell us how life really should go. And it would be

Kat:

like external information internalized? Yeah, go

Val:

Yeah. No, that's good. But, but I think that where a lot of suffering comes in is like, it is unbearable. Like you could not bear this one result. It has

Kat:

to be

Val:

one, this one feels unbearable. You, you are just rejecting it fully,

Kat:

Oh oh yeah, yeah. yeah

Val:

I felt that way a lot about divorce for a long time. Like I just, I just couldn't exist. Yeah. If, if I had to get a divorce, it was unbearable. I couldn't think

Kat:

that makes me think of, you know, the whole storyline of Fiddler on the roof. Right. Like, cuz he has a worldview. Right. And his first daughter like steps outside the rules. She picks her own husband. Right. But he's a Jewish boy. Right. That's okay. And then the next daughter, she like what's the deal with this guy? But the point of it, the third daughter is trying to marry outside the faith and, and this is too far. He's been pushed too far and he goes, if I bend that far. I'll break. And I remember that being so poignant in my own evolution where like, I had some things where I was like you know, these are the rules, this is the box we're inside of. And so you, you play good. Right. And things must to work out for you. Yeah. But then some things were shifting in my, in my world and I was like, holy fuck. I broke. And then I realized, I looked at that story so differently. I was like, you know what, if we will be brave enough to let ourselves break because you, you break the fucking construct

Val:

out of the box

Kat:

and then suddenly you get to emerge the truest you, the you, that is not just all the information you've

Val:

mm-hmm

Kat:

right? All of that social coding has been internalized and every single one of us, we are all a product of our society. We cannot help that. That's how human beings grow and develop. But when you allow the dissonance to get accelerated enough, the actual breaking happens, you find what's underneath it. And then you get to know that person and find that person live in compassion and love to that person, man. That's cool. But it's fucking hard. There's a lot of suffering around that.

Val:

Like you hope to break because then you're free. Yeah. Right. You're out of that box. I'm seeing like the Pillsbury cinnamon roll

Kat:

or oh yeah. Okay.

Val:

popping. Ooh There's no you can't, you can't fit those biscuits back in that

Kat:

No you cannot

Val:

popped it's out, biscuits are out.

Kat:

Yeah. That's awesome.

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about these very rigid structures that are kept to honestly keep people

Kat:

right. To oppress people until like you know benefit a few

Val:

to keep social order,

Kat:

Yeah Control people. Oh gross. I don't wanna be controlled by I don't even wanna control myself.

Val:

oh my

Kat:

I mean, it like, I'm not particularly disciplined about shit. I'm like, I'll do it. If it's fun, shut up.

Val:

that's of conflict goes from I'm like cat, come on, get in control at all. I don't even wanna control myself and I'm trying not to control you, but see here's the word, the problem

Kat:

is

Val:

I'm not control. I'm on

Kat:

Kenny

Val:

You're like,

Kat:

like no, that's super funny. Does that give you anxiety

Val:

really funny. No, it feels really good

Kat:

for

Val:

to like, say it and actually explain it. but these systems you're talking about. So I talk to clients about, look these systems when you have to divest from them, right? Like. That's the only way to like, if you either have to play by the rules, right. Or then if you're like, wait a minute, this, this isn't serving me. I don't believe this anymore. But then you have to divest from it and it means that you're not gonna get the perks or the benefits of it. Right. So I call it the gold stars. Like what kind of gold stars are you getting from this system? Right.

Kat:

So like, even we just think about like capitalism, right? If you play all the rules, right. You gotta, you gotta finish school. And by your senior year, you gotta have a great grade point average. You gotta have all these things to get into a good school. Right? Not like us so you wanna go to a good school so you can win capitalism. Right. And then you gotta like already know as a teenager, what you wanna do for the rest of your fucking life. Yeah. Right. And then you gotta spend and get, however many degrees is gonna support that, you know, and then you gotta climb the ladder. It's all climb, push, push, grind, all that shit. Right. And so, you know, it does afford you some privileges, if you can work your way up, all that, Right. Yeah. And so, but also. Are you getting to live your authentic life? You know what I mean? Like who, you know, again, capitalism gives you this gross lie about like, find what you wanna do and turn into career, like what you love and turn into a career. Like sometimes that works with like in the artist community, like that poisons people a lot, you know?

Val:

Yeah. Like, oh yeah. Find something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Well, I mean, and I think half my practice is with young people who are maybe in their mid thirties that are like, I'm really struggling with my job and like kind of working through some of the lies of capitalism or just like that your job is supposed to be all this. And it's like, yeah, all of that. Right? All,

Kat:

all of that And I'm not saying you can't work. I can't, I'm not saying you can't do work that you love doing. I'm not, I'm not even suggesting. I'm just saying like the internalized ideas about it are what we'd like to help challenge, you know, because like who you are is inherently valuable. Doesn't have anything to do with like how much education you have or you know, how much money you make. Like, you know, and then like to know that person to be in touch with that person to not lose yourself in pursuit of following the rules in order to win at life, you know?

Val:

cause, cause who's saying what, what is, what is it to win?

Kat:

I know, right? It's just this cultural thing it's like out in the Z guys. And like, you really can, people spend their whole fucking lives chasing these things and trying to attain something. And then many people are like, God, I, I got to the top now, what the fuck am I gonna do? I, I

Val:

and this isn't making me happy.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

I hear people say all the time. Why are celebrities or rich people unhappy? I mean, obviously there's, you know, there's a, there's a number. They found the happiness number. Obviously there's like a poverty line number, but, but money doesn't necessarily make you happy. right. But we've been told that that's the cap. That's the capitalism

Kat:

game right Yeah. Yeah When I think about what still makes me anxious, it's it's sometimes I'm like, oh fuck, am I gonna have enough money to survive? And, and so that's just a real thing. Right. And so, and then like how to reconcile that with this other, like zoomed out of like, ultimately everything's gonna be okay. I don't know how right. Yeah. And so I don't, it's not like I'm saying, like I have all the answers. Exactly. It's just like recognizing that we get We can live a life differently than the one that the culture told us to strive for. Right. And I really, I see that with like the younger people are a lot less tied up in all So I, I, I feel hopeful about that and I I'm. Yeah.

Val:

Well,, but I wanna loop it all the way back. Cuz I think we started talking about capitalism cuz I had said to you, a couple years ago about just feeling worried about my husband's lack of a W2 right. And so when I looked at like, so what if he has a DB two? Like, is it more stable? Sure. But also he could get fired. It's the illusion. It actually, it just feels more safe or stable to have a job that someone says, they're gonna give you a paycheck every week instead of like, oh, how much did you sell? And what's our profit and right. So I was like, oh, that that's is exactly what cat was saying. Like it's an illusion of control. Right. I saw a really big change in my life honestly, after really internalizing the idea about how control is an illusion.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And then, Just understanding about the lies of diet culture and, and about healthism and that, like, we really have so much control over our health. We only have an amount of control over our health and so much is out of our control I think coupled with like what you're saying. you're gonna be okay. Yeah. will it end up the way you want? I don't know. Will there be some pain? Probably. Will there be some happiness? Probably. But, but you're going to be okay. Yeah. And finding that piece

Kat:

Maybe we have like an idea of these things need to be in place for me to be okay. And it might be important to challenge that too, because some of those things might not be in place, but if you just sit alone with yourself, In some room somewhere and you're like, oh right now I'm alive and I'm breathing and, oh, I'm, I'm actually okay. Like in this exact moment here, I.

Val:

I am

Kat:

I'm okay. And I have unknowns. Right. And then again, that's where the anxiety comes from. I have unknowns. Right. But is life right now. This present moment is the only thing we have. It's the only thing that's real. And actually I, I am. Okay. And then for me, the greatest comfort is like some we die. I'm totally convinced that like, on the other side of this life is something pleasant. Right. I don't know exactly what it is, but I'm like, yeah, someday it'll be over. It's gonna be okay.

Val:

Well, I mean, how much anxiety can you relieve from your life? Yeah. If you did a pie chart of how many of all the things you're anxious about or worried about if death is, is, is a big piece of the pie, how much Wow.

Kat:

yeah. I know lucky me it's cuz of the drugs,

Val:

Well and going back to the control, I think for me, what was the unbearable thing? The unthinkable thing, yeah. Was that we would fail and we would. Have to sort of leave the things that we had mm-hmm and, and we would be seen as failures and I think that once I was like, could accept that and not hold on as tightly. Yeah. Like just really seeing my fist going from this really tight fist to an open hand, holding things loosely. Yeah. And like, well, do I want that to happen? No, but now it's not the end of the world anymore. If something were to happen or

Kat:

failure is a bit arbitrary too,

Val:

Yeah

Kat:

it's like cultural standard and like who who's out there judging people, you know what I mean? Like what

Val:

well, there's a lot of judgment that goes on, but then also

Kat:

really matter, Yeah Yeah I mean in whose eyes, like at the end of the day, like, this is the thing, when I think about anxiety and how to cope with it, it really is like creating this inside space where you're kind to yourself. Mm-hmm right. Where you live and you cultivate your own practice of self-compassion where you're just like, yeah, I'm always gonna be on my own side. It's interesting. I met someone the other day and they were talking about how they just recently moved to the bay area and how it's quite difficult to start all And I was like, yeah. And I was realizing I've done that several times over in my life. I have started completely over in a new city and, you know, a new job. You know, even like once I had all this like beautiful security that I was, you know, constant looking for, I had this like marriage and two kids. And my ex-husband had like deep roots

Val:

in,

Kat:

you know, this area of the world. There was just all these things that I thought that I wanted, but I, I had to say goodbye to that. I had to think goodbye to all that security because I like my, my truest essential self was like, I'm not in resonance right now. I was like, whoa, Catherine. I didn't think that through I was like, I just was like following the next thing that I was like, oh, I have to be all the way me here. And, and for some reason, this relationship isn't giving me the space to And so inside of who I am as a person, I just am. Okay. And again, all of us, when we feel anxiety, if we can come back to like this exact present like, are you worried about a future thing? Are you experiencing something right now? And like, do the thing where you like, touch your body and just like, come right back to it really helps if you've cultivated a safe space inside, Through mindfulness or meditation or whatever your practices are. Yeah. I'm gonna be okay and I'm gonna breathe through this and yes, it's uncomfortable. Oh, what's the thing I love that term. You gave us a few episodes ago about discomfort.

Val:

distress

Kat:

tolerance, distress. yeah,

Val:

yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

Cause when you have a mindfulness practice or some kind of self-compassion practice, your ability to tolerate distress. Yeah. You're just more flexible with you're like, yes, this is unpleasant. Like even when I was so, so sick, I was like, obviously I don't like this. It's not fun. It is getting me down. But like I'm still, I'm still actually. Okay. Yeah. I'm okay.

Val:

Self-compassion as a way to reduce your anxiety. Yeah. Yes. When you're kind, when you're gentle and kind and understanding and graceful to yourself and your you're, you're continually reminding yourself, you're gonna be okay. Anxiety tells you, like watch out. You're not gonna be okay. Right, right, right. So I love that using self-compassion right. To reduce anxiety. We had one more zoomed out one.

Kat:

Oh, What's it

Val:

perfectionism Another way to reduce anxiety, fucking

Kat:

Yeah Get rid of that

Val:

that shit.

Kat:

it's just, that's just white supremacy. That's so gross. Don't you think? So?

Val:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because you were asking me before, but how do you get, how do you get rid of it,

Kat:

Yeah What do you do? Yeah,

Val:

Because it is hard,

Kat:

Again, internalized concepts,

Val:

Yeah. Well, I love the quote that says Engaging in perfectionism ensures that you'll be in a perpetual state of self doubt.

Kat:

Mm yeah, right. Yeah.

Val:

Mm isn't. Yeah. That's I don't like that. No,

Kat:

that okay So I just wanna add to that too. Like one of the ways to combat perfectional is to increase the level of play. So you know, that I'm an artist. And so, I mean, it took me years to really cultivate an art practice because of perfectionism mm-hmm right. I'm self taught. Right. But I would get all these art supplies because they brought me joy and pleasure, and I would fucking not use them. Because whatever I was gonna create had to be perfect. Right. Yeah. And so I was minimizing my willingness to engage in something that was gonna bring me pleasure and potentially help me get into that lovely flow state. Right. Because of perfectionism. Right. And so I started to get more and more information about how important play is in our life and like moving away from ideas of like failure or success. Right. All that stuff. And like, you just get to like, make a mess,

Val:

Mm

Kat:

know mm-hmm like just get in

Val:

fits so nicely with, I heard another quote recently, play lets us know that we're

Kat:

Yeah Oh, isn't that

Val:

play lets us

Kat:

know that you only have access to play when you're nervous system is regulated enough to enjoy yourself. That's interesting. Well, okay. Here's a random way that I introduce a little more playfulness in my life. This is gonna sound so funny, but my kids and I have this roommate, who's just this lovely human. We love her so much. And she happens to be the one that buys bulk toilet paper for the household. And so it's so funny, but like when she moved in, she also put this like this shelf in the bathroom. And so it has all the toilet paper. And so I started ma I didn't like looking at the packaging of it for some reason. And so I would take all the toilet paper rolls out and I would stack them in like random ways. And then like I thought, oh my God, this is hilarious. To have like my roommate walk in and be like, what the fuck? is happening here And then my kids sort of got in on it. And like my kids like helped basically create an art structure out

Val:

making sculptures out of your toilet.

Kat:

Yeah. It looked kind of like an owl and so it was tall, but then it kept getting shorter and shorter and shorter. Cuz you would take the toilet hair rolls from the bottom. And then I was like, this is fun. I can't wait for the next bulk toilet paper cuz we're gonna like create some of the it's just silly. Yeah. But just playfulness because there's a lightness. Right. And again, I think that's a nice and synthesis to the seriousness of anxiety. Right. We can't take ourselves too seriously. Right. The idea that, oh my God, I might be a failure. That's taking yourself a little bit too seriously. You know what I mean? If you're like, oh yep. We tried that didn't go the way I thought it was. I learned a lot. That was fun. right

Val:

learning from failure, yeah. I also tell people if there's a perfectionist voice in their head, maybe asking again, like, whose voice does that sound like? And that might help kind of unravel a doing this? yeah,

Kat:

yeah, absolutely. And then I just wanna say too, like maybe we touched on this already a little bit, but you know in some ways the anxiety is serving you, right?

Val:

Anxiety isn't necessarily bad just in and of itself to experience anxiety. We don't need to pathologize that there's not something wrong with that. We don't need to give someone a diagnosis cuz oh, you're experiencing anxiety. It's a part of everyday life. Sure. Right. There actually are very few anxiety diagnoses. When I got to grad school, I was like, wait, that's it like right. We're all gonna have some kind of worry And yeah, I do talk about that worry does actually get us to move. Right. It, it sometimes can get us into action. Hey, I haven't gone to the doctor in a long time. Okay. Maybe that's just worry. Yeah. Saying, Hey, let's, just remember that thing.

Kat:

Yeah Remember that? Yeah

Val:

We're just trying to tame it. The other day I was like, you know what?

Kat:

Befriend it,

Val:

befriend it. Yeah. Worry is like gum.

Kat:

Oh my God.

Val:

I was like, I'm a genius again. Here. I am saying, I'm a genius.

Kat:

you are a genius. How is worry? Like

Val:

gum, Well, because like the first few minutes of gum is amazing. You just had like a garlicy lunch. You want a fresh breath and the first five minutes, it's very helpful. Right. And then the gum loses its flavor. And now you're just giving yourself a draw ache, cuz you're chewing on this thing that has no flavor. Ah, now it's now it's hurting you now. It's useless. Because I do have a lot of clients as well that like they're project managers, they're like the organized one and the group, And so it's like taming that talent, or however you wanna call it, it's like, okay, when you start to worry about something. Is it telling you any new information? Is there anything you can action. Right. Is there a plan you can get in place? Is this like, oh, I forgot this thing, right? No. Okay, then we got to move on from it and

Kat:

Yeah Spit the gum out

Val:

now. spit the gum out. Spit the hair like with a little kid, hold out your hand, spit the gum out. Come on, come on. And so right. We go to all of our practices, the soothing, all of those things of when that comes. So

Kat:

so good You are a genius. Anxiety is like gum.

Val:

my gum. So the other one you mention, you, you also just mentioned it being mindfulness. And when people come to me, how am I gonna be less anxious? Well, first of all, you probably need to slow down. We are not going to become less anxious if we don't, we haven't sort of found a rhythm of life. What's a rhythm of life. That's sustainable for you. All right. How much, how much sleep do you need? Is there a margin? Are you booking your calendar? Are you being too optimistic about your time? Are you not giving yourself breaks? Right? Are you it's funny cuz even fast talkers. I'm like, oh you're probably anxious margin. right. Rent a little high.

Kat:

I feel Yeah Yeah

Val:

But if you're not slowing down to be with your thoughts, the non-judgment, how can you have a practice of being non-judgmental with your thoughts? Yeah. You have to slow down and notice them. Yeah. Huh? I notice that I'm getting really uncomfortable when this happens. You gotta slow down so that mindfulness. And there's another there's another really cheesy

Kat:

give me the cheesy. I love it so

Val:

much about like how, and I, I tell clients like, okay, this is cheesy, but just listen. Depression usually comes when we're looking too much to the past, this is an oversimplification and anxiety usually comes when we're too much in the future. Right. Right. And so we need to stay and most clients are like, oh yeah, that's so true. Like I know it is, isn't it. So I find with anxiety, we are living too much in the future. Right. And this is, the problem with that. Yeah. Anxiety usually breeds in places where we have taken responsibility yet we have no control.

Kat:

Ooh.

Val:

Let me Say it again. Anxiety breeds in places. Cause I made this up myself. I want everyone to hear this anxiety breeds in places where we have taken responsibility when we have no control over

Kat:

it. Wow.

Val:

Trying to control your

Kat:

Yeah Your

Val:

spouse, your partner, you're taking responsibility. That's my responsibility. I'm gonna be judged by that. But you have no control and that's one place that anxiety breeds. So where are you trying to take control?

Kat:

Oof. I love that release. Oh my gosh. The ramifications for that, like just parenting alone. Yeah. Oh my God. So

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

Yes. And okay. Again, like the feeling of anxiety isn't inherently bad, but how we get mindful and how we address it. Like, again, I'm always gonna bring us back to like, get in your fucking body, get in there, right? Yeah. Because when we live, you live too much just in your brain. Listen, people are thinking minds are just a small sliver of who we are. That is not you in your entirety. That's just this little bit. And that's the part that is the most activated and susceptible to all of this cultural messaging, all the stuff that gets

Val:

into your mind. Mm-hmm

Kat:

And so when you get into just physical body, you just are like, okay, I'm gonna the floor. Feel real anxious. I'm gonna breathe into my body. I'm gonna feel air. I'm gonna push air into fullest part of my belly. I'm gonna roll my shoulders, whatever you need to do, your thighs, whatever feels good to you,

Val:

getting

Kat:

in your body.

Val:

well, and mindfulness you having some kind of mindfulness exercise. Like I tell people, just pick one thing. Yeah. Washing your hair, making a sandwich, doing the dishes. This is all you are going to think about. So if this is like something you wanna get into is a good way to start. Right. Just sit there with your sandwich, your salad, whatever you're eating. And don't look at the phone, right. Again, through your senses. Yeah. Trying to do it in doing the dishes. Just, just focus on what you're doing and just let your mind get a break. I like to call the mindfulness speed bumps. So, so sometimes if you're trying, if your brain is just going into the future too much, let's say I had this one time where I had to have a meeting with some people that were really mad. At me. And like my bosses were behind me, but I knew it was just gonna be so unpleasant, especially as a people pleaser, like, and being highly sensitive, like get me away from everybody's like upset energy. I didn't wanna go. I was freaking out. And so I was like, look okay, first, don't think about that meeting. All I have to do is go and take a shower.

Kat:

Ah,

Val:

Oh And even saying it it's like the relief. I don't have to think about yes. Getting all the way to the meeting. Right, right. Breaking things down into smaller pieces. It's one of the greatest tools. Right. So, okay. So I could do that. I could get up and go wash my hair and take a shower. Yeah. Okay. When that's done, all you have to do is dry your hair. Now for me, that takes a while. so all I have to do is draw my hair. Stay in the moment and that kind of like speed bump and again, distraction, soothing. Yeah. Involve other people, right. I'm not gonna go any further than this. Now I'm gonna go get dressed. And so I also teach that to people as another way to kind of help them bring their mind like back into, Into that

Kat:

mindset And it's like a kind way, again, we're not asking you to like, hide yourself for the anxiety feelings. Right. We're just, we're gonna gently

Val:

Nope. There it is. And, and I've actually asked clients too, like, can we make room for the anxiety? Like, can we just make space for it and the distress tolerance and riding the way emotional wave surfing. Yep. It's gonna be here, you know personify it. What does it look like? What kind of cartoon or color, or, and it's just like, yep. You're here with me. I know I have a big presentation tomorrow, so you're gonna be here with me. Yep. Maybe I'm gonna feel you in my heart racing or I'm gonna be like anxious or irritable or it's gonna be hard to sleep, It's okay. Like you're gonna be here with me. Totally. And it might just be there for the rest of the journey. Yeah. And we're just gonna have capacity with it, make it comfortable. All right. I know you're here with me. Like

Kat:

it's okay I mean, what if you could fucking play with it? Like what if you like befriend and be like, oh, anxiety. Oh, I see what you're doing. You take a nap, you go take a nap, go eat that sandwich. I gotta do this over here. You go. Eat that sandwich. You're funny

Val:

I actually talk about but I like this too. I actually talk about like, being really fierce with anxiety because it it's relentless. Here's the other thing about anxiety. Yeah. For most things that it tells you to worry about. Yeah. You can't a hundred percent. Prove the opposite.

Kat:

Oh, okay.

Val:

How can you tell someone there's a hundred percent chance that nothing's, bad's gonna happen to their house today? True. so why it's so insidious sometimes that when, when it really bothers us is that you can't prove the opposite to be a hundred percent true. Right. And so it all kind of stick around. It might just be there 1%, 2% sure. But then also it also like tells us a lot of things. You gotta worry about that. What about this? What about that? Oh, you can't really trust that person and just kind of make it like really talk back to it,

Kat:

back to

Val:

anxiety. Yeah So I like that you're doing it in a playful way. Like really? Do we really think that, you know, there's gonna be a tornado here tomorrow? No anxiety, come on. I like the thought of doing it in a playful

Kat:

way. Yeah Yeah. That's really the more play we can infuse into our life is always gonna be helpful

Val:

before we end. I have to talk about catastrophizing because I feel like a lot of people deal with it. And I personally deal

Kat:

with it Yeah

Val:

of just that my brain immediately goes

Kat:

mm.

Val:

to what Google

Kat:

wrong. Sure. the

Val:

case, wait, Val that's that's not guaranteed that

Kat:

that's

Val:

what's gonna

Kat:

happen.

Val:

The scenarios that were immediately popping up in my head were the worst case, but I was believing like that they were like really, really gonna happen. And I had to really just walk myself back and be like, wait, that's just the worst case. But my brain automatically shows me if it's like an algorithm, oh, I never thought of this. This is an algorithm like on tick TikTok or Instagram, it's showing me the most intense thing that could happen. Whoa. Maybe we can end on this. I have a really cool visualization for that, but I wanna say this is one way where it didn't serve me. And I had a client tell me about this article called the. Upside of anxiety in the New York times, really talking about the case for like, Hey, if you have anxiety, you're fucking lucky because you have access to like, you're thinking you're preparing. Right. And my client was like, you already told me all these things. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. So, so there is all this good thing to it, but we have to know where it's not serving us. And my husband is more of the, like, let's just go for it. He's not thinking about all the details. He's just like, I have this great idea. Let's go for it. Let's be optimistic. And I'd be like, what about this? What about that? What about this? And it would really upset him and and one day I realized, oh, maybe my way. Isn't always the best way. But I was realizing that at. Actually was not helpful that I, every idea that he had or whatever, I was immediately seeing the worst case that could happen. And it was not serving him. It was discouraging him right. In ways that were not helpful. And I was

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

Okay. But it feels so real. But I was reading about Research was showing that visualization was helping us move on quicker. Yeah. Where, in cognitive ways we're getting stuck.

Kat:

Yeah

Val:

I didn't realize that when we catastrophize your brain is already using its

Kat:

Exactly Yes

Val:

show you the worst case. I did not realize imagination was, was a part of this.

Kat:

Right. Mm.

Val:

So why not imagine

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

the best case scenario? Right. So I have clients think about the worst case, right. Then I have them think about the best case of the thing that they're wearing. Like what's the best. Perfect. If you could write the script and then they imagine that and go to that, and then I have them do. An okay. Scenario Right? What's another alternative, cause we don't wanna be rigid and maybe the best case won't happen. Right, right. But what's an okay. Scenario. Why you're gonna survive if this happens you'll feel good. Yeah. And so that I've found has also been really helpful to balance out the catastrophizing.

Kat:

Oh, so helpful

Val:

ground. We sure did. Aww

Kat:

Yay.

Val:

Yay. I think we just need to end ourselves

Kat:

here.

Val:

end our time together. We've used it all up. Yeah. Aw, thanks cat.

Kat:

I love you, Val.

Val:

I love you until next

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host