3 Questions with Kat & Val

Friends for the end of the world!

• Season 1 • Episode 27

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat:

We're back. Hello? Hello. Hello.

Val:

Did you miss us? Come on. Tell the truth.

Kat:

We're talking about friendship, Val. I'm so glad. You're my friend.

Val:

Hmm. I'm glad. You're my friend too. Cat.

Kat:

Yeah. We've been friends for 28 years. Yikes. Do you remember the first time you met me?

Val:

No.

Kat:

Can I

Val:

myself and have a very good memory, but at the older I get the more I just like, Nope, I don't remember.

Kat:

that. Oh my gosh. I, I don't know for sure if I remember exactly when I first met you, but I can remember. Hearing you laugh from like a distance away. And I feel like it was probably around like Val and I were both on like drama teams in college and our Bible college that we went to. And so you were like older and cool. I mean, were you just a sophomore? And I was a freshman. guess you seem so like mature and interesting and you like, you're very popular. Yes. And attractive. Oh yeah. Yeah. And you had like this great laugh.

Val:

Aw.

Kat:

Yeah. That's what I remember when I think of you.

Val:

Oh, I that's sweet. What's really funny that you said that was, I get that a lot where even people I had just met, she's like, were you at the community food market on this day? Yeah. I think I heard you laugh

Kat:

grocery

Val:

Oh my gosh, this person doesn't even know me. Who's been with me like three times and she can spot my laugh across the grocery store.

Kat:

I love that. That's amazing. Yeah.

Val:

I mean, there's worse things to be known, you know,

Kat:

Sure.

Val:

for. So I'll take it. Yeah,

Kat:

Gregarious person. Totally.

Val:

Maybe that just helps me you know, we talk about like things getting trapped in the body and all that. So maybe it's one of my ways just like, let stuff go

Kat:

feel. Yeah. Having a good loud laugh. Also, you talk about being like a, an east coaster too, and aren't just east coasters, just louder as a loud, right?

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. East coast energy. Yeah. Louder.

Kat:

louder. so you can have a

Val:

take up more space, you know, we have very intense feelings. We like to talk to strangers.

Kat:

Oh, that's so good. I love that so much. so friends. Yeah. Today we decided to talk about like how to make friends, having a friend for the end of the world. I feel like there's some show there's a movie. It was called how to really, yeah. How to like finding a friend for the end of the world or something with bill Murray.

Val:

I mean, I feel like that's really important. Also we watch one of the zombie shows the walking dead which I probably wouldn't watch if I were not married to the person I'm married to. If I were alone with my choices, I

Kat:

probably

Val:

probably would not choose that. It's

Kat:

Is it still going on? Oh,

Val:

it's the last fucking season. Get out with it. We're only watching it cuz it's the end. It's like 10 seasons, but yeah, it's

Kat:

a long time for the zombie apocalypse.

Val:

it's not great. it's not great. Oh gosh. I mean, it really makes you think about some existential questions about like the civility that we like, the, or maybe even the pretend that the illusion of civility we have in this world, but just like this straight up anarchy, you know, and just. How do you, do you trust anyone last, the last episode we were talking about moats and like putting up your walls. I mean, literally they're like we gotta maybe kill these people cuz they're probably gonna wanna kill us. can you imagine, can you imagine?

Kat:

No, thank you.

Val:

Anyway, I thought it was funny that you were like, yeah, let's talk about making friends for the end of the world. I'm like, what do you mean cat

Kat:

I mean like the fall of capitalism, we're late stage capitalism and there's like, you know, climate crisis anyway, like as an adult, it's harder to make friends. We all know that. And like also we live in like a tumultuous times. Yeah. And so

Val:

it's not great.

Kat:

Yeah. Like having more friends is important. Let's have more friends.

Val:

I actually tell them like younger clients, like, look it gets harder and harder to make friends. So. I wanna send you this letter from the other end of the

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

from the future. Like it is harder.

Kat:

I think what's harder because our culture has fucked us all over. Right. You're required in order to stay alive in this world to work X amount of time within the capitalist structure, most people do not have the emotional energy, like it's all given to the workplace. Right. And then you spend your, evening or your weekend, if you're a parent, then that's a whole other thing,

Val:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

then like you're recovering from like all of the output, right. In order to just to survive. Right. I'm trying not to be a donor, but it's a donor so I'm like,

Val:

Well, and even before the pandemic, I feel like, and again, I don't know where I get this feeling from, or if anybody else feels the same way, but it just felt like the pace everyone was on the pace society was on. Like even my friends that have kids, it was like, oh, we have three birthday parties this weekend, and then we have to go do this and then we have karate and then we have that. And then we're, I mean, it just, it was, it. It's unsustainable, right. Or the amount of travel or just the amount of movement. It just, it didn't seem sustainable. Right?

Kat:

Yeah. And then, so the pandemic slowed most of us down. Right. Significantly. So, yeah. And again, it's in these spaces though that like cultivating community or actual, real meaningful friendships is so important. You know, obviously most of us from the pandemic are also like, oh my God, we're pretty isolated, you know? Right, Yeah.

Val:

I, I have heard from several people probably in the general chatter

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

that it did maybe make us really take evaluations, who are the relationships that we really wanna be a part of what's important and, and really spend our energy. Yeah. In those.

Kat:

Yeah. Do you have any, like, really weird, like how you made a new friend stories, do you ever meet in one of really weird ways?

Val:

I'm sure I do have some, but I can't think of it right now, but do you have any,

Kat:

oh my God. I have this great story. How I met this like fantastic musician who later became my friend. So yeah, I had discovered this lo musician named Willam mammo. She's so cool. You can check her out. She's on Instagram and she's a queer musician singer songwriter, there's something about her that is just like, she's just shiny. And you're like, oh my God, I wanna be in your press. It's very interesting person. And so I had newly come out and I was like, you know, wanting to be in queer spaces. I can't get anyone to go with me. And I'm like, ah, I'm just gonna go. I'm gonna go by myself. And so I remember I like kind of ducked into the bathroom and I'm just like on my phone, and as I'm just texting this person, I hear will mammo humming, like in the bathroom that I'm in. And so I'm like, okay. Oh my God. And I go to this sink and she's looking at me and I'm looking at her. And I, I think I'm probably like a little starstruck, you know, mm-hmm But she's, she looks at me and we say, hello, and then she. Do I do. I know you. And I was like I know you from the internet and she was like, do you like make art? And I was like, what the fuck is happening? My head started exploding, cuz I was like, I don't understand what's happening right now. And so then I was like, yes. And she goes, do you make body positive art? And I.

Val:

was like,

Kat:

Yes, but I was like having kinda an out body experience. And then she was like, I was just on your page today. And I was like, I was just on your page today. It was just the strangest thing. She started trying to like kind of bow down to me, like in this bathroom, because she was so like in impacted by what I was putting out in the world. And I was just enthralled with her and what she's putting out in the world. And so, like, I remember it just like, it really fucked with my head. For sure was like, well, a Amanda is amazing, you know what I mean? And like, gorgeous, like so attractive and like talented, all these wonderful things, you know? So it was not hard to be a little like sweetie, and she knows my name. Aw. So

Val:

that's awesome.

Kat:

I know. And then that turned into like, you know, we chatted a little bit at the intermission and.

Val:

then

Kat:

We like took a picture together and then like, she hosts an open mic night and then like, I went to that and then we, she just welcomed me into community. And so like, I've been to a few more of her shows and yeah, like she's like legit friend of mine, like during the pandemic I gave her a haircut, so Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so anyway, if you're interested in like a cool musician and she's like in the bay area, but she's actually moving cross country. So I got to give her a hug just last week and say goodbye to my like darling friend who, you know Aww. Yeah, but I, I love her and like, it feels really good.

Val:

She knows me.

Kat:

she does know me.

Val:

my art.

Kat:

So when we think about like cultivating friendships in our life, you know, like that, that story in particular, like I, you know, it could have just been like this fun, like meeting that we had once, but I remember like, Reading on her page, like, oh, she does these open mic things. And I have a kid who's interested in music and I was like, oh, I can put myself in, in her presence again, you know? And so yeah, like making the extra effort to like, be in spaces where people we'd like to build community with are going to be is, you know, like kind of a first step to like, how do you make more friends? Mm. So, And I'd say like, my friend group has really shifted a lot since most of my friends when I was married I don't spend as much time with, and, you know, and now I have like a really wonderful core group of like queer people in my life, you know, mm-hmm and and so those are the, the main people I, I see regularly, you know, you're like the exception I have, like one or two straight friends left. Yeah. Val's straight everybody. you found the. I said it like out of the side of my mouth. So like that's what you're saying. That's how you identify. I have to honor that you said that.

Val:

really, that how funny, you know, If you've been following around the podcast, I moved here right after Bible college with, with my best friend at the time. And I've been in the bay area, man. It's been like, 25

Kat:

years, I know, I know. I

Val:

I mean, I love it here. But, and then I, I still am friends with some of the, they were kids. They were like in the youth group or they were just graduating. The first church I worked at here and they're still in the bay or are we keep in contact and, and so it's just. Lovely to feel because I, because I did, like, I left home at 17. Right. And not feeling like, well, we don't have any family here. Right. And then my husband rap is from a different country, so he doesn't have family here. So it kind of feels great. Like. To have, they're probably the people I've known probably second longest to you. Right. And then another church that I went to and that I worked at, and that spent like most of my twenties at I made such amazing lifelong friends and that. Was kind of really what kept me there at that church. And like, was the thing that everyone said was like, oh, we're finding community. Cuz a lot of people come to the San Francisco bay area for work school. Right. they're here for a good time. Not a long time. they're here for the vibe. They're not here for a long time, but like, yeah. And we just, we needed community and we were a welcoming place and, and, and you know, I still consider a lot of them to be they're in the best frontier. You know, my closest friends were in that group. But unfortunately with a lot of people who live in a metropolitan area or the bay area is that people move. Right.

Kat:

Right, right. Right.

Val:

And so not many of them still live here. Yeah. But what has happened is like, I don't know if I spoke it into existence or just made it happen, but it was like, all right, all of my super close friends and I mean, years cultivating these friendships. Right. I'm like, I guess I just. Go visit them. So so we got our bubble family in Miami. We got, you know, the besties in Portland. We got San Diego. We I'm planning a trip to Texas. see a couple of them just had a reunion in, in New York city. And just, I think grateful that I've been able to do that. And obviously technology and FaceTimes and phone

Kat:

all the things.

Val:

Canada, I just had a friend visit from Canada, you know, but like just realizing. Okay. These friendships are so important. And we were in that like real those developmental times where like you're young, you're figuring yourself out, you're getting into your career. We're you're meeting partners. Those things are just so deep and important and just like, okay, well I'm not giving up just cuz they're moving. Right. And just, okay, those are friends. And, but then unfortunately they're not around in physical body as much. Right. And so then I think then, then that comes to community, right? I've had a lot of new people in my life this year because of pick a ball, pick ball, shout out to all the, pick a ball people. And it's like, it is that community. I joke that like, since we don't have children or a dog, a dog. We had friends come, they had their, their toddler. Yeah. And I think they had their dog with them.

Kat:

Okay.

Val:

Okay. And, oh gosh, we went to the farmer's market. I mean, it's seriously, someone asked for their number. Oh my gosh. Our kid is the same age. Like where are you going to preschool? She's like, I don't live here. And I was like, oh my gosh, we haven't met anybody in this, this

Kat:

Right, right, Right.

Val:

So I joke, like if you don't have a kid or a dog, a dog it's a little bit harder. Right. And so I just have this great rich, like multi-generational pickle ball community now. Right. And maybe one or two are people that like, I would like really talk about how, how I'm doing, but just to have, I think it was a missing piece that we had. Also because we seem to be traveling a lot.

Kat:

It's

Val:

like to get those, but I feel like I need those. Like, I do love to travel. I'm so curious about the world and all the different people in it. I wanna see all the places and experience all the things, but I want roots too. Yeah. I've had to fight a little bit for that, but I want roots and I feel like I just feel so good about that. Finding that thing that has connected me to the community I live in. Also, thank you. We just got a silver medal this weekend.

Kat:

yes.

Val:

pick up all update deceptive.

Kat:

Val is

Val:

the role that in.

Kat:

Yeah. Silver. Congratulations. You

Val:

the gold. Thank you very much to like 20 year olds. oh my gosh. My partner's 53. Yes. One of my 46. So one of the girls was half my age and one was 30 years older. And so we held our own, but you know, my body does not bend like theirs does there's some winners that they shouldn't have been able to get. their body still is like Gumby. Like you can, it's disposable. It's disposable. Comes back. It doesn't break.

Kat:

right.

Val:

But yeah, I, feel like there's like layers of people in our lives

Kat:

that.

Val:

That I even talk like again in my program or set yourself for love when like kind of reclaiming that time that we have in life when we aren't partnered. And I know we're gonna talk more about this when we talk about it, that like our culture overvalues romantic. Connections and the romantic people in our lives. And I love to hear on social media, tell your friends, you love them so much and make it awkward. And I do that.

Kat:

Yeah, I do too. All my friends. I'm like, I love you. I Yeah. Hey, will we talk about like the tiers of relationship? So like, you know, we have like the best frontier

Val:

Well, yeah, we we've talked about the best frontier, right. That I don't like to crown one winner.

Kat:

it's

Val:

a race. It's not a game, everybody. I, I always say, I feel like you need, you need a, a few different people in your life that, that are like, If you are partnered up, you need somebody that's like you in many ways and that you can commiserate with. Right. And then maybe somebody we've, we've talked about Rai's fake twin, the peacock twins that she really helps me kind of see things from his perspective. And I, I respect her opinion more than I did. Right. Like those are good. And just. So we have the best frontier. And then I think there are people in our lives that maybe are they're friends. And they're great. they're not the ones that when we think about, Ooh, I have a few minutes, like, who would I wanna be with? But they're friends, they're great. They're in our lives. And then I think there's that acquaintance, that community, right? Like people that care about you and know you. I might have said this on the podcast before, but like the first time someone noticed like, because I have a lot of like this chronic lower back pain and someone had said something about it and, and I just saw the concern and one of the guys' faces like the older guys that. Probably my parents at pickle ball. Yeah. Probably my parents' age. And he's like a big jokester, but like I saw in his eye that at that moment he would've done anything that I needed and like was so genuinely concerned about my welfare. I wish that for everyone, right. That like you have multiple levels of people that know you. care about you. Right. And just like miss you when you're gone. Totally. Yeah. Right. I've never lived in a place where we have neighbors that we know. Yeah. And I know you have some great neighbors, you know, neighbors that know you and care about you. cause I think all of our life, it was about the church, right. That was really the place where people were supposed to know

Kat:

And I think it's really valuable to like, actually think about these different sort of again, tier is what the word we're using, you know, like a layer, your circles of intimacy. Right? Mm-hmm but like, I think that there's a lot of value for every tier, you know? I have mostly lived in really large cities, but when you know, we went to college in a small town. Our, our town was small, but then after college I lived in a city that was about 50,000 and it had a really small town feel. It was Boze in Montana and it was a lot of years ago. I think it's probably grown since then, but I remember just, I would bump into people that I happen to know just like at a store, yeah. And like, I remember being. Oh, my God, that felt so nice to not be like an anonymous human, trying to get what you're trying to get. And I, I was really struck by that. And then, I mostly live in, in, in larger city since then. So I haven't really experienced that with the same regularity, but like to bump into like, just an acquaintance. Right. But a human being who knows your name, it makes me think of the cheers song, you know? Oh,

Val:

I know actually mine and refi's first date,

Kat:

Uhhuh, he

Val:

he was talking about like, well, where do you wanna live? Like, he went hard. First date went hard. Mm-hmm and, and I was like, I really love San Francisco. I really love it. And he. He didn't have the greatest, first impressions. Right? Sure. And again, he grew up in an incredibly large city in Rio de Janeiro. Right. And so he's like, I wanna live in a place where everybody knows my name. He goes a small town in a lake, like in the movie, the

Kat:

notebook oh my gosh. She's moving you hard.

Val:

It's so on brand for, for who he is now. Now I know him to be, he's like, yeah, like in the notebook, you know, like I sit down, I, I pull out my newspaper, everything that he wants in life. He's like it was American movies,

Kat:

Oh Yeah.

Val:

I, I pull out my newspaper and they say, Hey, Hey, Mr. The usual right. Uhhuh And so I was. Okay. I, I don't wanna leave San Francisco. And then, so of course I put on the charm, like, okay, we'll get like a, like a vacation home in a place, like, like a notebook. I'm like, okay, fine. That was good enough for me in the moment. But we live in a, a little beach community, a little island in the east bay, if you will. And it does have that feel. Yeah. And I had to kind of convince him to move here cuz he needs, he needs, oh, we're gonna talk about personalities next time. He needs to sense it. He needs to be in it, but I'm like, no, no you're gonna love this place. And so we have, we have a cafe where, you know, the waiters know him and they're like the usual crab cakes, Beed addict, you know know how he likes his coffee and he is, he's so happy for it. Right?

Kat:

Well, that's a great point, Val, like for cultivating, like if we're trying to make new friends and community like frequenting, the same place over and over again is actually a pretty good like method, you know,

Val:

yeah,

Kat:

And, you know, listeners, when you think about like, how do you make friends starting with your acquaintance level people and seeing like, Hey, is there someone in that rung of people I might like to get to know them more, you know?

Val:

Well, we did talk about vulnerability last

Kat:

Yeah, we really did.

Val:

we were like, you modeled it for us.

Kat:

I'm a model, everybody. I'm a model. Yes.

Val:

a model where, you know, we talked about lowering that Drawbridge. Yeah. Right. And like making yourself vulnerable to allow someone in. Right. And so I think it is like putting yourself out there. So, so yeah, to make new friends, I think just kind of be around you gotta kind of. Be around yeah. And be open. Right. That's why I think dogs are pets are good. Right. You go to the dog park or people strike up a conversation because of the dogs or right. It's these like shared things that,

Kat:

Well, one thing that I think is great about the internet is that it's pretty easy to find groups of people based on different identities you fall within. Right? So I'm pretty vocal about being part of the fat community mm-hmm And so like, I, my art is like fat liberation art. So there's a, collection of humans that live in fat bodies and who are also sort of, you. Saying, no thank you diet culture, we're gonna be liberated. And so like you know, if that's one of your identities, there are like groups you could like tap in, you know? Yeah. You know, fat community in your area or, you know, and then you and I both have a chronic illness. And so like those, some of those support groups exist. And so a lot of. Online spaces also have local in-person meetups. You know, I'm also a queer person. So same thing. I have some online groups that have in-person meetups. And what you're saying is really true, Val. Like if, if we wanna push against the, the loneliness that is, you know, pretty rampant in our culture, we have to push ourselves out of our comfort zone. And there's just, there's no way around that piece. Right. We have to put ourselves where other humans are. Or make the effort to like, you know connect and then, you know, and then once you have like these tears of people, there's like other great things that you can do to sort of deepen those connections, you know?

Val:

know. Yeah. And as listening to you talking, like I have to make, I haven't been the best at that. And I think, because like, from, I just wonder, like from such a young age, it was like, everything is around church. And even some of the messages of like your close friends should be Christians because of the influence they have and all that stuff. Right. But I think I'm just used to that and I do have some identities I've even thought like, and I've shared this on some of the other episodes that it was really a rough time for me socially when all my friends had young, young kids and not, not all my friends had kids at the same age, but, but it was pretty much in a general like five year. And then of course going through my own infertility at the same time, and then kind of struggling with my husband's travel and his business and all of that at the same time was just incredibly. It, it made for a very lonely time and I really wish, I always suggest that to clients like, Hey, have you thought about it? And sometimes it feels too painful to be in a support group or maybe interest group or identity group actually feels a little bit less. Cuz sometimes I think people have said like, I don't wanna go into a, a small group about my problem, cuz it's just, it just feels like so much of maybe people feel overwhelmed sure. By this shared experience sometimes. And sometimes it feels very affirming yeah. And, and cathartic. But I think that I wish I would've reached out cuz I felt very isolated. I didn't know anyone else that was going through infertility and it's such a unique experience. I wish I would've found the people that said yeah, me. which is one of my favorite quotes about friendship. Like friends are made when, when you turn to someone and say, oh, you too,

Kat:

right. Ugh. Yeah.

Val:

Even in therapy. I've read some things about how. People are wanting therapists with lived experience because it's in the nuance that you feel seen and you feel known. In that shared experience, it's like, you really understand what I'm going through and how heavy this is. I should have reached out and found people that were more in my stage of life. Right. Because that is, that does cause stress and isolation. When you go through stages of life that are different than your peers, you have children earlier, you have children later, you go back, you go to school, right? Imagine when someone goes back to school older

Kat:

yeah. And again, that's the thing, like the internet is actually a great place to sort of find those and then you can move from the internet to like, you know, some real life interactions and stuff like that.

Val:

There was a time where we did we were like sort of living in a new area and I was. I do love this, that Bumble has, they have a professional and then romance and then the friend one too. Right. And so it was like, oh, you

Kat:

there's an app for that. Yeah.

Val:

There's a net for that. Finding friendships.

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

Is is also important and let's help people find that. So, so I was on there for a little while. Like a lot of people were just like, oh, I'm new to the area. Or I went through a life transition, whether my kids left or I went through a divorce or all these things and looking for friends and I think, yeah, get on there and, and, and find some people. I think that we have more tools than ever yeah. To be connected. Yeah.

Kat:

And,, so once you've made contact with, a couple humans that you're like, oh, I'd like to know you better. We have three questions that can help deepen your relationships. I feel like we've been a little guilty Val on the last. Several episodes where we, like, we haven't actually like set our questions out loud. Yeah. And so like, yeah. The title of the podcast, everybody's three questions with cat and Val. Yeah. And so the questions are, what's bringing you pleasure. Yep. And then what are you learning? Yes. And what's moving around for you? Yes. And so what's fun about these questions, depending on the level of relationship you have with whomever, you're discussing this with, you know, again, we just talked about vulnerability. Last episode, you get to decide how deep you go in any of these mm-hmm but they, they are a deepening thing, you know, like how to get to know someone. right, is to be interested in them. And, and our, our conversations can go so much. They can become so much more richer if we move away from like traditional small talk, you know, what do you do for a living? Where did you grow up? You know? Yeah.

Val:

Well, and, you know, use your judgment, dear friends. If your opening line is what's bringing you pleasure you know, you might get a

Kat:

it works for me. That works for me.

Val:

there you go. There you go. Friends. There you go. But I love that somebody said like, instead of asking, what do you do? For a living ask, what do you do for fun? Or what do you love to do? Oh yeah. I love that. I love actually I pickle ball too. That nobody's, asking like, oh, what do you do? Right. That's not what people are leading with. It's like, who cares? But how many spaces are you in? Or at least I was in that, wasn't the first question. And so I love sneakily finding out my partner's a CEO of a company

Kat:

wow.

Val:

And then it's hilarious when people find out that I'm a therapist, cuz no one's asking.

Kat:

I love that though, because again, I think capitalism has sort of taught us to rank people based on perfection mm-hmm and if you're in a new space where you're like, no, we are here to play. Yeah. We're here to play together. And so like you bring your presence. It's it's less about social currency stuff.

Val:

Mm-hmm mm-hmm social

Kat:

hierarchy. Yep. I love that. Yay. Pick ball.

Val:

Yes.

Kat:

I will say that I've noticed in queer spaces small talk doesn't look like it used to look when I was in heteronormative spaces and I think that's really interesting. Again, when I think about like my journey from. You know, living in a, a heterosexual long term marriage and the, I don't know the, the constraints on what was available to you in making new friendships. It really was. You had to like, it was around your kids and there's not a complete negative, but also there's this strange energy in modern parenting. There's a lot of perfectionism mm-hmm and it, it. Felt good to me. It was rare that you'd find another parent that was like, you know open about the fact that they swear or like that their house is a mess or you know, that there, you know what I mean? I remember it felt like there were these nonverbal rules that existed and I'm noticing that in queer spaces, it just, those. Those don't exist, at least not in the same way. Yeah. And so, like you were mentioning that IM pick a ball the first question, isn't what you do for a living, you know, and then I would say in queer spaces, it's also not the first question that you're, you're getting met with either. Yeah. And so that's really refreshing when we can find, you know places where you get to show up as opposed to like these other sort of markers that we, we can navigate through mainline culture with. Right. And I find that refreshing.

Val:

Ooh, okay. Oh, I wanted to rant about something. May I? Yeah. Well because I think you're talking about social currency and like what we do if we're partnered or not, that's a social currency, right? If we're parents, and I think another one and I just wanna push back against it cuz just fuck capitalism is like this whole thing of well, you know, show me your friends and then I'll show you what you'll accomplish or like you will only go as far as like your three closest friends it greats me because it commodifies people and, the transactional nature of what people think friendships are. Yeah. Fuck that. Fuck that. Like be around people who feel good to you, be around people who feel good to your nervous system we are gonna talk about more about like the community care, but it really upsets me when I hear people talking like that because then talk about business associates, like, like, sure. Are we influenced? Are we are, are, are we influenced by the people we were around? Ooh, fuck. Diet culture too. Like, I remember reading stuff about like, the, the eating habits of your friends were gonna like, like determine whether you were overweight or not.

Kat:

follow.

Val:

you. Fuck all

Kat:

I know that makes

Val:

burn. That shit.

Kat:

Yeah,

Val:

it's like, no, be around people cuz you want to be around them. Stop the social climbing, then call that like business associates. That is not right. Although I, okay. I'm done with the ramp, but I understand how like

Kat:

well, no, what you're saying is true. There are still elements, loud elements in our culture that commodifies people, right? Yeah. And, and it manipulates the need we have for connection and community.

Val:

Yes. And maybe there needs to be a distinction between friendships and then community care. Right. Cause I, of my first days as a social worker, we were in a training and I never forget like this eye opening statement. Right. She was like, you know, usually most people get their first job from someone they know in their community. Mm. And if no one is employed in your community,

Kat:

wow.

Val:

How are you going to get your first job? Wow.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

Oh yeah. Oh shit. Sure. Like, so your community who, you know right. Who, again, like how we're caring for each other, cuz the systems whether some of them were created, you know, with good intentions or a lot of them were not created from good intentions, right. Created to suppress people. And it's really all back again about power consolidating power. Even just with the school loans. Oh gosh.

Kat:

I know, I know

Val:

A memo coming out from the Reagan era about if college was free, we would have, I forget the term, a strong pro educated prote. I don't know if they were like, this is bad. If everyone is educated for free we'll lose. Our power is BA and it's a memo. It's like a classified memo that was released, whatever. Yeah.

Kat:

Ugh. I hate that. That exists.

Val:

Yeah, I, I guess in sharing that I want to recognize that like the communities we live in your neighborhood will affect, how you grow up and your health and the people around you. But I think I wanna take out friendship and the people that you wanna just live life with and share your day with, or go on an outing with is different

Kat:

Well, in my story, it's interesting, I make friends with people that I feel resonant with. Right. And that changes as we evolve and change mm-hmm you know what I mean? And so, like the community that I grew up in, I don't have friends in that community. I mean, it's a different state and everything, but also it was, there weren't very many healed people that I grew up around mm-hmm you know? And so when I think about like who I wanna surround myself with now, and the kind of people that I'm attracted to and drawn to for friendship and community and all of that thing, it's, it's people that are in resonance with, how I've evolved, you know, and yeah. I don't know. one of the things about living in a smaller town or like the comfort of you go to the post office and, you know, people there here's the tension. If you grew up there, sometimes community can like lock you

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

To like, this is who we understand you as. And so this is who you need to be for us. And that was one thing that I experienced within Christianity. Right. Mm-hmm like, I was locked in to being like a straight person. Right. I had. Idea. I wasn't straight until I was a full adult, you know? And then I, you know, like I was 40 when I came out 40 years old, you know? And so again, like there's, there's the, both, and in all of this, right, we need community. We, we want to have those things and we wanna have the freedom to grow and evolve. And then when I think about cultivating relationships over the course of a lifetime, there is also this idea that sometimes we outgrow relationships. Yeah. Right. Be it friendship, or, you know, you have to adjust some dynamics. Boundaries with family you know people that we are in resonance with may continue to change as we grow up, you know? And so that's been my experience, especially like the, the very clear shift was like, I was in a straight heterosexual Christian marriage I am gay you know? And so like, that's a pretty big shift. And so yeah, most of the people I spend my time with right. Are, are also.

Val:

queer

Kat:

Or, you know, like have that like desire for growth and evolution and all those beautiful things. So in this conversation about friendship and building community and all these things, like I also just wanna say,

Val:

like,

Kat:

Sometimes these things shift. And so you make new friends and that's not a failure. That's just part of growing and healing and evolving. You know,

Val:

I do love that. That is part of like, you hear just kind of in the social commentary. Yeah. Like let's normalize friendships, not lasting forever and, and letting them go gently. Yeah. And even like, not it not having to be a breakup or, or yeah. And even just normalizing that sometimes friendship breakups, when they happen can feel as bad as like a romantic breakup as times. Right. I'm trying to do my part in battling that social commentary that your romantic relationship is, the end all be all, and that it should consume most of your life and that all these things especially, you know, I deal a lot in CI, hetero relationships, you know? And I have hope for the younger generations, I joke about like, well, wow, great. Your boyfriend knows how to apologize. And in my head, I'm. But I'm still working on that with my husband, you know? He's, he's doing better, but, as they're raised, in households that maybe are less of this, you know old school, stereotypical gender norms that I have more hope for hetero asexual relationships. But like, it does seem to be a, a shock for some of my younger female straight clients to hear your partner is not gonna understand it all.

Kat:

Mm. You

Val:

You know? And, and I think we could say that in, In any kind of relationship, right? That like your partner might not get it all. And, and that's a lot of pressure to put on one person and again, diversify your investments. That's the number one role of investing diversify and that not every friend, I don't go to every friend for everything and I, I don't get the same thing, but that's why we need to hold tier of best friends. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. A tier of people that we are emotionally comfortable being vulnerable with. Right. And then and then you move out from there. There's another tier where you're a little less intimate, but like, it really does take a lot more than one person to meet all of our complex needs. You know,

Val:

We are two complex people. So it really makes sense that we need a lot of, we need a village, it takes a village and

Kat:

I think all human beings are

Val:

I know. I know. And you know, as you've talked about like hyper focusing on your healing, I think that, and maybe it was the first time I verbalized it in our family. Episode that I think I knew at a young age, I felt the isolation and the smallness of my natural family and some of the distance that, some people caused in the family and I think just from an early age, I wanted, I'm like, I need more people than

Kat:

this

Val:

group.

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

need more people than this. I want more people. And I think that I've always really valued that. And I think that's why it was so hard for me when a lot of my friends started having young kids, cuz they've even researched this, that, that zero to five year old. When you have zero to five year olds you're in survival mode, your relationships do suffer. And then after they get more autonomous, then it's like, you're coming up for air. And, you know, I have friends that, you know, they're in, they're in that they're at that stage and our relationships have kind of they've we have more time together. We have, they have more space for it. Right. I'm going on a girl's weekend, this weekend, we've been trying to get this together and their kids are older now and it feels so good to have some of that reconnection.

Kat:

You know? Well, it's interesting too, cuz like I, for sure experienced that when I, when my kids were small, it's very isolating. And again, I feel like it's a critique on the culture, right? Because it's so much work to be the only, you know, you and if you have a partner. Responsible for small lives and all of the demands that that requires as opposed to, again, in other cultures or spaces, it's, it's not on, you know, the two parents, it's not the nuclear family is, is too fucking hard. on, on, you know, the grownups it's. awful. I didn't like that. I was looking at a picture of my kids recently and they were so little.

Val:

and,

Kat:

And I was struck by like this wash of like, oh my God, I love them so much. And, and at the same time mixed into all those memories is holy shit. That part was so goddamn hard. I wish there, our culture, you know, you were gonna talk about like growing up and having a a commune. Yeah. Right.

Val:

Growing up and having one. Yeah. yeah. When I'm a grownup,

Kat:

I want that. I want real communal living, right. That would've been so different to be able to raise small children with other children around and other adults that like the kids are just running around and then you get to like talk to a grownup, you know?

Val:

Well, I think that's why even Rafi. Twin when we go to San Diego they love that we're around cuz there are other humans to invest in their kids to cuz uncle Rafi is a big kid. We know he doesn't always play nice, but he's a big kid, you know? And it's like another human pouring into their kid and I know you're not gonna glorify the past because again, right. There was less rights for women and all that. But I remember this one documentary of, of some tribes, somewhere where all the women were sitting around and they were caring for their babies together.

Kat:

Yes, yes.

Val:

yes. What a, what, a more beautiful picture, right. Even, even introverts need people at times. And I, wanna repeat this, but, you know, my, I remember my grandmother and I was so excited about making friends and like, well, you're not giving me an extended family. I need to go make some friends. Right. And, and she was like, no, your friends will leave. You. It's only family that'll be there for you. And it was just so odd that the exact opposite had happened. Yeah. In my need, it was like, friends are very important. And like, I feel the absence when I don't have that. But it is harder when you are older and there's a lot more like responsibilities, less time, I think too, you were talking about even in some tender times, not wanting. That there's a different kind of energy for new people. Yeah. That, why do we stick? Why are the, why are the friends that we've made in the old times? So important? Cuz they live life with us. They know us. They've like journeyed with us and, and it's just a different ease to go in and spend time with those people as opposed to the energy.

Kat:

Well, again, the amount of time it takes to cultivate actual intimacy, right. To like lower the Drawbridge to reference last week. Yeah. Right. So in order to be your full, authentic self with another person, it takes a little time because it's a vulnerable thing to be. You know, this is all the way who I am, and I'm gonna show up as authentically as I can with you. And yeah. So with someone new, you don't know if they're worthy of your trust yet, you know,

Val:

Yeah. And, and we need that to cultivate new friendships. So the old friendships we've already put that time in. Yeah. Right. We've already put that time. But yes. Going back to the commune I'm actively recruiting. well, I have a lot of holes in, in my plan, so I'm not really sure what's gonna happen because I want it now.

Kat:

I know I want it

Val:

I want it now where it's not just RKA and I, I feel like we are extroverted, I've asked before, can a, can a relationship be extroverted? Like Valentine's day, it was like who's coming with us, you know? And when you're in a very young romance, People like they, oh, you should be alone. We're like, no, we wanna celebrate with other people. Like, we can go have sex alone, but like Valentine dinner, who's coming with us. Who's coming outta our honeymoon. Like, you know we always wanted people around. So I feel like it's good for both of us. We're our best selves too, I think. Yeah. And so I feel like I wanted to happen now, but then I, I read this couple stories. Mm-hmm of there's there was these couples that bought some land.

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

and built some tiny homes. And that's where they're like retiring with their friends. Yeah. Then there's these women, I don't know if it's China or Japan. I I can't remember now, but they they're in their thirties. Mm-hmm but they bought this giant home. Yeah. And they're gonna plan to retire there. They're working on it and they all have, have had this pact that they're all gonna bring a, a very specialized life skill to this commune when they're all right. Gardening. Right. Accounting,

Kat:

dunno. Mm-hmm,

Val:

like, all these things, right? Herbal medicine, one of'em was studying. So they're bringing to this like commun. And so there's a part of me that like, wants that to be something for retirement. Oh, that's very hard to like predict the future, but there's a part of me that wants it now. Yeah. And, but all the homes are built for. So anyway. Yeah. I think I'd be living my best life if I was in some sort of like a communal living

Kat:

Yeah, same here. Like when I was a campus pastor, like that's literally what we did. Like we rented out houses cuz like in

Val:

right

Kat:

town there's lots of rentals and they, they all touched each other. Like, you know, their yards touched is what I'm trying to say. And then like just lots of community houses and you just fill'em up with students and we just, we were fucking living life together. So goddamn fun. Yeah. I loved that. And then I, you know, a few years later after that I was married and it felt so isolating. It was so different. And I just, I don't know. I'm I'm with you you know,

Val:

Someone needs to tell you, like when you live on campus and you're in college, like. This is the last time you're gonna be surrounded with that many people at that, at

Kat:

again, that's just because our culture was built this way.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

know what I mean? Yeah. It, it it's because it, you know, it's the whole pull yourself up individualism, right. Bootstraps and all that stuff. And, and again, the, the, the culture we lives in live in has this like hyperfocus on the nuclear family. Mm-hmm And again, this like. You know, private fences in your, your single family home. And so that's the thing like culturally, we have been forced into isolation. Right. Whereas here, you and I are just two people that are like, Ooh, I would prefer not to be in isolation. Right. Yeah. And so

Val:

all right.

Kat:

don't know how we, like, We gotta build it.

Val:

All right. I have a few friends who are architects. I'm gonna go talk to'em today.

Kat:

Friends. We're glad that you exist out there. And we, we do love to think of you all our listeners as our friends

Val:

Well, and part of our community, right? Yeah. Like someone accidentally responded to something on Instagram. They're like, oh, sorry, Val. I I thought I was responding to my friend, but. The podcast. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. How'd you know, like, you know, how'd you find us

Kat:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so fun. Yeah. Reach out to us anytime we, we love that shit.

Val:

So I feel like the three questions with KA Val are like, they're like a design inspiration.

Kat:

okay. Okay.

Val:

Like, you know my design aesthetic is cozy. Mid-century glam. Ooh.

Kat:

Ooh,

Val:

Okay. When you come into my house, that's, that's the feeling, right? There's a whole shelf of disco balls in this house, right?

Kat:

Cozy midcentury glam. That's exactly it. Oh, okay. Right.

Val:

But I don't have to like I don't have to have it posted somewhere. So I feel like our three questions are molded into

Kat:

the conversation.

Val:

Okay. In the same way they are, they are. And I think today we have talked about that. What we've, what we've learned about friendships, sort of how we, even, how we want to shift things.

Kat:

Yes. yes,

Val:

things have shifted in our life with friendships. As we changed as our life stage change, as our religious affiliations have changed and what's bringing us pleasure. I, I feel incredibly grateful for you for the friendships in my life. And I, I do get a. Pleasure in cultivating those. Yeah. And, and like the richness that it brings to my life.

Kat:

Absolutely. Yay.

Val:

go. I did the three questions. Yay.

Kat:

All right. Bye friends.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

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Kat:

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People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host