3 Questions with Kat & Val

“Know Thyself” -all our favorite personality tests!

• Season 1 • Episode 28

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious. I'm convincing KA that this was the best use of her day.

Kat:

Oh yeah. It absolutely. Is. Are we starting? Yeah. Hi. podcast days are always my favorite day. Absolutely. Hands down. 100%, two thumbs up

Val:

Two ups up. Like it, it's a vibe. That's what the kids say. Oh my gosh.

Kat:

that's so funny. Yeah. That is what the

Val:

I'm still not used to, but we get Airbnb reviews of like, this house is a vibe. Like I think that that's a really good compliment. Thank you. This

Kat:

a very good compliment. Yeah.

Val:

we're here today. Podcasting

Kat:

podcasting. So

Val:

twing.

Kat:

Yeah. Today's episode is about knowing ourselves

Val:

know yourself, bitch.

Kat:

it's so funny. We're a little SL happy at this point. It's

Val:

this is where the magic comes out. Actually, this would happen to me. So often as a kid, a teenager that my one friend, oh, he listened to the podcast, shout out to my high school youth group friend that they would call it pumpkin time. Oh, Val went to pu pumpkin time, probably in college too, like said that, but I was like, oh, Val, wents pumpkin time.

Kat:

Yeah. I use that in present time. I'm like I'm pumpkin. I'm pumpkin real hard now

Val:

do you really? I dunno, anybody else that uses that?

Kat:

turn into a pumpkin at midnight.

Val:

Yeah. Oh yeah. So

Kat:

I

Val:

did tell my, I I've had to tell my husband and, you know, if you, if you are a, a, a follower of the podcast my husband does just enough that I don't say I'm done with you. because we do not value hetero men, you know doing their emotional work. Like that's not at least

Kat:

you as you and I, as individuals do.

Val:

of course. But yeah. And especially like what, like 30, 40 years ago that was not like high on the priority list. So you know, it was, you know be a man and don't feel your feelings like suck it up. Don't cry. So

Kat:

don't cry.

Val:

So I found myself telling my husband, sir,

Kat:

sir,

Val:

you're having some extreme feelings right now and you need to realize that and then come to me with

Kat:

your shits or

Val:

yourself, sir. And sometimes I help him know himself and you know what, that's just a gift that keeps on giving, I guess, to

Kat:

telling you, like, he's extremely lucky to be married to you.

Val:

I think he does know that we've had some, we've had some update update. I'm you know, I'm keeping him around for a while.

Kat:

Yeah. Made the congratulations.

Val:

I, I really despise the bachelor. I'm really sorry if anyone loves it. But like I do like you know, a good like project runway, top chef. So there is actually one called making the cut and it's like, congratulations. You've made the cut for another

Kat:

exactly why I said it. Cuz I watched the show and I love design

Val:

you like design shows. I

Kat:

it always makes me wanna get my sew machine out and like make

Val:

Aw.

Kat:

I love it. I love it so much.

Val:

I love witnessing people's creativity,

Kat:

people, artists creating in real time. I love

Val:

Know yourself. Are you a creative bitch? but yes. Just to give a little, just to give a little update. Yeah. Yeah, we've had some hard talks this week and I really thought it wasn't, he was not gonna make the cut and that's very sad. Right. I've told you me and freak. Yeah. If you wanna go back, see Val, what is, what is Shal talking about? What episode was that we talked about?

Kat:

Unsolvable problems. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about getting creative with unsolvable problems and sometimes in a human relationship, two different people. You can have some unsolvable problems.

Val:

The experts, some experts believe six, at least 60% of problems in a relationship are unsolvable. You just manage them. Oh. And then I came up with this since, since then. Yeah, because I'm a genius. You

Kat:

You are a genius, a genius. It's sexy. When you say it. I love it.

Val:

Not saying it to try to be sexy, just that like some, some are manage, you just have to manage them. And then it's the unmanageable problems that lead to, I think, dissolution of relationships. Oh, right. So it's like, is it, is it unsolvable? Okay. But is it manageable? And if it's unmanageable, then maybe that was good. Right.

Kat:

You are good. Yeah.

Val:

Yeah. You know, so anyway, that's, that's my,

Kat:

luck, Rafi. I mean,

Val:

Good luck rave What's the hunger games, quote, may the

Kat:

odd odds ever be

Val:

in your favor?

Kat:

I.

Val:

So anyway, that's our update from the unsolvable problem land. But today we're gonna talk about, oh, you're welcome. Mm-hmm today. We're gonna talk about know yourself.

Kat:

Yay.

Val:

And we have bonded over all the different, like quizzes on knowing yourself and like all the personality stuff and all

Kat:

my gosh. Decades worth of talking about this shit decades. So fun. That is

Val:

funny that we have since the beginning, since we knew about them, actually, I was gonna bring this one up. Do you remember the first kind of personality test? Is that what it was called?

Kat:

Sangwe melancholy. Matic. Yes.

Val:

that was, that was the

Kat:

no NAIC. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Caloric. I'm like, now that sounds like calorie, like yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Personality. Plus

Val:

That was the first one. Oh my gosh. It's like, oh, you're so Sanu right. You were

Kat:

the Sanu is kind of your extrovert and like, you know, playful and the Callic one was like, like type a get shit

Val:

be mm-hmm

Kat:

Can run a business CEO and then thematic is like that easygoing person who has like a silent will of iron, right? Oh yeah.

Val:

I, I never heard that part.

Kat:

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then

Val:

silent will of iron.

Kat:

okay. So like, they seem real laid back in easygoing, but they just, they like, they don't wanna make any conflict, but there are some like lines they

Val:

just, oh, gotcha.

Kat:

they'll seem like they're being like cooperative, but then they're just, they're just not gonna do the thing, but they're not gonna

Val:

mm,

Kat:

to it. Yeah.

Val:

the passive aggressive actually that sounds like the engram nine, which you can get into, but yeah. And then the melancholy. Yeah. Which is like the

Kat:

artist you're artist, your deep thinker and you're highly emotive.

Val:

I remember like, we must have went, we must have like went to some classes on this or something, but

Kat:

the book, I read the book and everyone, I made everyone read the book, Yeah. So over the years we have found so many fun like tools like this. Right. And nothing is perfect. This is not, you know, no dog, Mihir, just like it's fun to

Val:

I tell clients, this is not a blood test. OK. this is not a blood test. This, if it helps, it helps. If it doesn't throw it in the garbage. Yeah anyway. I think we should break right before we forget let's break for commercials before we break out all the personality

Kat:

Absolutely. We'll be back with so much more fun, everybody.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

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Kat:

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Val:

Okay. So here we are. You ready? I'm

Kat:

I'm so ready for this

Val:

Buckle up.

Kat:

I am buckled in.

Val:

Well, okay. Why are we doing this? Like, I think, you know, foundational to our work. Right. Did you ask me that question? KA? Why are we even interested in

Kat:

this? topic? Yeah. Thank

Val:

That's what I thought you said. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat:

I, well, okay. It's just a shared passion, right? And I think that it's, you know, when we talk about all the other shit, we talk about like, what's really.

Val:

This is foundational. Sure.

Kat:

Yeah. You have to have some working knowledge of yourself and how you work and how you function the world. And so you and I have just loved all these extra fun tools. Yeah. That help uncover some true things about ourselves. And then when you're reading some of this shit, you're like, oh, this is like my thing, my category that I fit into and you start to read the descriptions and you feel seen mm-hmm and you're like, yes. And sometimes you find new language that you didn't have access to before, but you're like, ah, that resonates so deeply. I love that feeling. Yeah. And it just does feel fun. I don't know. Like, so you and I are both really curious and we just, we love I don't know, discovering other people, but also like discovering ourselves. It is like a fun thing.

Val:

It is, I think it's human nature, right? Like just, all the quizzes are like, I know social media's full of when, when we used to read magazines, like there'd be quizzes, like find out. And I think we, we kind of like tug in cheek, like, because a lot of people will PPO on all this and like Myers, Briggs is one, like one has been around for a long time and then people are like, oh, it's like, it's not even like scientific. Yeah.

Kat:

sure. Yeah. I mean, I know there's critiques, there's reasonable critiques of a lot of this stuff, which is fine, but also if you don't take it so fucking literal and you're just like, this is a fun tool I

Val:

will Well, yeah. And we change, right. I think there's some debate and research changes over like, does your personality change over time or is it pretty static? And I think that there's like, I've read about both, like, yeah, yeah. There's and then there's even, well, yeah, like it tends to say pretty, pretty steady, but then also we change and as we get older, even like our, our, our personality attributes, or maybe the intensity change also, I think some things that we think are a part of our personality are things that are, that need to be healed sometimes. Right. like, is it your personality or is it your trauma? Like that's, that's part of it. Right. So all those things together, again, just tools.

Kat:

Yeah. So.

Val:

Okay. Cat, let's get into it. Huh? We got a lot of there's a lot of stuff in here.

Kat:

It's just so fun. And they're really cuz we've known each other so long. We've we've like collected so many different like fun things.

Val:

I know. All right. Well, should we start just, we're gonna just kind of mention a bunch of'em and yeah. Yeah. So Myers, Briggs, I feel like that was kind of one of the big ones after the personality, plus, although it's been around a while. Right. And again, people, sometimes poo poo on it and be like, there's no, there's no scientific data.

Kat:

Right. And sometimes tools like this can be misused, cuz I've heard some critique about like, you know, they give them two perspective employees, employers do, and then they're like, oh yeah, no based on a personality test. Which isn't really ethical.

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. Like meet the person. Do you know? What's really funny is that actually my first job and my first pastoral job, right? The pastor. Sent me this, right. He had already hired me, but he wanted to know my Myers Briggs before at the church. Yeah. So they were really using it in like all the skill building and stuff. Also at Bible college, they told you that no one was gonna care about your GPA. This pastor cared about my GPA and told the whole congregation about it. Oh, that's hilarious. And then I

Kat:

had a high

Val:

I did.

Kat:

I know

Val:

So I was okay with that. But the virus breaks, like they tug, I think the big one. So there's right. This one has the different types. And it talks about intro introversion or extroversion, right? Where you get your where you get revitalized or rejuvenated,

Kat:

Your relationship to other people. And does it drain you or does it energize

Val:

you mm-hmm and where do you need to, where do you need to recharge? Absolutely. Mm-hmm so that's, that's the first letter on that

Kat:

that changed for me. When we took this test, I was in college. I was a raging extrovert. Mm-hmm then now I almost always come out like 50, 50

Val:

And I think they have also added to this it's also can be called the 16 personalities as well. But they've added the ambivert. Yeah. Because so many people, and again, again, use it to help you use it, to know like, oh gosh, I need to, anything can be misused too. Right. And

Kat:

course. Of course. Yeah.

Val:

so then the, the next letter in your type and they, they came out well, the next letter in the type is about information. Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret it an ad meeting? So this is sensing with an S or intuition is the N right? What, what was your latest?

Kat:

I'm an N I've always been an N

Val:

the whole thing though.

Kat:

Oh, well, Ian E Ft. No, E NFT. Yeah. E P P

Val:

E N F P. That's funny. Cuz I'm an E N F J

Kat:

yeah, I know this about you. Mm-hmm Yeah. yeah. We're really similar. But you have the judging. I have the perceiving I'm skipping ahead to the

Val:

You are, but you know, this is funny too, cause I have a whole book about how Myers Briggs in relationships and the different types. I think that can be really helpful. It helped me too, because. So, okay. So we were in couples counseling, right? And I think what, what we didn't realize is RAI is an S he's sensing. He wants the facts. I was talking last episode about, I had to tell him that our current home, this little town that he would love it, cuz it's very beachy and everything. But he was like, I don't know. He doesn't trust his intuition. He's not the, he's not the

Kat:

not my ex-husband was like that too. I was like, your intuition is actually good information. Yeah.

Val:

But no doesn't trust the, the intuition. And so he hadactually asked, had to live here and then be like, yep. I like it. So I feel like that's just really helpful to understand the people around you. Yeah. But I. Well, and then, so then we'll get to the next one, which is about decisions when making decisions, do you prefer to look at it, logical and consistency, or first looking at the people and special circumstances. So thinking or feeling yeah. Feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Hello feeling. So because my husband is or let me say it a different way. I think RAI can be very emotional and passionate. Yeah. And have a lot of like strong feelings. Sure. I think even our therapist thought that he was an F so here I was thinking that he was making. And when I read this about his personality type, I finally like looked it up that he was the S and the T yeah. Making decisions logically, right. It says there does not take people's consi feelings into consideration when making decisions. I was like, ah, and again, the meaning we make, he doesn't love me. He's a feeler. He knows my feelings and he's still making decisions that are hurtful to me. Right. And I was like, oh, I mean, this doesn didn't change the fact that he was making decisions, but the meaning we make about the motivation or the why that was like a revolution to our relationship of how it helped. Right. That he was He's wired, but I think the cultural overlay of it made myself and even the therapist. Yeah. Think that he was an F instead of a T and like, oh yeah. Why is he doing this? Right.

Kat:

So it, like, it made, you have certain expectations that he wasn't able to like meet really.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. But he better learn how to fucking meet

Val:

these guys.

Kat:

expectations. it's funny.

Val:

it's just really helpful to know that that's how his brain works. Even though it seems like maybe he's more of a feeler than he is. No, he's very logical. He's just very funny. And Greg. Yeah. Mm-hmm yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. Okay. So the next letter is structure. the last one in dealing with the outside world. Do you prefer to get things decided or do you prefer to stay open to new information and options? oh, fuck you. so, yeah. Yeah. J or P perceiving. Yeah. Which the shorthand is kind of like. Well, okay. This is where I think again, when you're, you can really study deeply into these things and really understand it, or do you get like, kind of the pop culture version of it? And I think you used to, I used to explain it, like the JS are usually very structured people. They're more of the admin type people and the P are more spontaneous or go with the flow. Right. And I think we think about getting things done, probably cuz we're in a capitalist society, but it's really, and this was really eyeopening to me too, that the, the judging wants to decide things. Yeah. Is, is less comfortable with the unknown. Yeah. And I think as a society, right, that's just a human nature is that we need to label things so we can organize them. PEs are just way more comfortable with like, Hmm. We'll see I don't know. Yeah. And, and so my own, my own personal growth, I think just knowing that it's like, okay, I, I, I want an answer quick, or I want to decide how I feel about something or make up my mind about something, because I prefer that it feels better, but okay. Let's just, let's a distress tolerance. We can, let's just be open. I don't know. We'll see. And I, I feel like I've grown so much as a person just making that shift.

Kat:

Yeah. And these tools, what they do is they help you see like, oh, you're different than me and you're not wrong. Right. It's not a character flaw. Right. But like, when you don't know that yeah. When you don't know that, the way that you navigate the world seems right to you. We project human beings do this. We project onto other people, you know, our, our, our own way of navigating. And then they, it fucks with our heads when they don't function, the way we

Val:

Isn't so funny. We just expect everyone like, oh, you're not like me. why not? Like, why, why do we expect that? Isn't that

Kat:

not funny. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird that that's a human nature thing, but it really is like, it is a huge sign of growth. When we, as individuals can be like, oh, you're different and not wrong. And that's not a threat to me. Right. That's a big deal. Like it takes us a long time as human beings to get to that place. You

Val:

don't have to be like

Kat:

You don't have to be like me. And it doesn't threaten me in any way that you're different than me. Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

Good. All right.

Kat:

Well, I got to there earlier than most people because I'm a pee outta J

Val:

Maybe, maybe you did. Alright. So then the Enneagram.

Kat:

mm-hmm,

Val:

this one, I feel like I'm just getting to know more recently used, used a lot by churches and some O other groups, but it's basically based on the idea that there are nine different major personality types. And it's funny, you're gonna talk about as astrology in a few minutes. And I was making the joke that like astrology is like, oh, I, and please forgive me. I really don't know much about astrology because it was of the devil as far as I was told

Kat:

was taught that too. We were taught that

Val:

But it, but there's so many memes of like, oh, it's whatever it's Virgo season. This is why I'm gonna behaving badly. Right. Or like this, I feel like that

Kat:

Virgos are really organized though,

Val:

Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. See, see, pick the wrong lunch. But it's almost like it's an explanation of why I am the way I am and at least in pop culture that I have seen there, isn't a lot of like, oh, this is how you change. This is, it's just like, haha. This is how I am. But the engram is really about, growth.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And this is your type and this is like your character role or this is like, I don't know. I try to explain it. I was like, this is the thing that like you're most interested in, in life or this is what you kind of center your, the basic theme of what is the most

Kat:

thing to you. Yeah, yeah.

Val:

Right. And then there's so they talk about like in stress, you go to this number. Yeah. And then in health, you move toward this number but it is all about performance and changing. And becoming a more like actualized version of yourself, which isn't necessarily bad. But I, I think I'm always alerted to the striving aspect. I think you're alerted to the dogma aspect of our shared history

Kat:

we're like, no,

Val:

no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think the striving is, is, is still something that I'm like, ah,

Kat:

ah, yeah.

Val:

what I've also noticed about the types is I'm like, I feel like there's an overlay, which I don't see in Myers Briggs. I feel like I see an overlay of the diagnoses that I was taught to recognize like in the DSM or what we use in, you know, mental health. So I. Nines really seem like the inattentive ADHD type and the sevens seem like the hyperactive type. So I just think that's really fascinating. There's always all these Venn

Kat:

of oh exactly. I was gonna say, that's the fun part. When you have some working knowledge of these different tools, then they kind of like, you can mash'em up and layer'em over each other. You know what I mean? And you're like, oh, I just, I don't know. That's like, it is making my brain like jump with joy. Yeah. I love it.

Val:

well. And even I follow this woman that like, she talks all about the Agram nine and I think she was fielding some questions of like, yeah, if you identify as a, if you've tested as a nine, you may have the inattentive type of ADHD. Right. And just don't know it. So there's nine types. We'll have links to places where

Kat:

and I are both twos. Right?

Val:

We are, but it,

Kat:

what, why do you sound sad?

Val:

Well, okay. Because they say a lot of people have been socializes F people in the world identify as a two in the church because that is the message of like, you need to be the helper and the giver and, and relationships. So there, there's a whole thing you can read about like mistypes, or, or I

Kat:

I have read that stuff. And then I think when it gets down to your like, core values and like your core motivations, like there is something so deep inside me and I see it in you too. Like there is this like intense desire to do good in the world, right. To be of service in

Val:

the world.

Kat:

Yeah. Like when I think about core motivations, that's it for me. Right.

Val:

And, and the two is very Focus on relationships. Yeah. And in their life. Yeah. Where, well, again, know, know thy self and know others. It's like, not everyone. That is their number one focus. Right. And so I actually do think, I think, I, I think my want was like playing into type like or a lot, I guess. I just wanna say that out there too, if you were in the church world for a long time and, and you score a two, just, just, just, you know, really dig around to see if, if you're following this. Like, is that really it, or sometimes nines get maybe you're a nine instead of a two, but just that, like how it might have affected you. But no, I definitely do if I search down. Yes. The thing that I'm always thinking about is my relationships. Yeah. Friendships, family romantic. And so I do definitely think I'm a two. And honestly, when I was introduced to this, it really helped me. To work on this. Right. And each one has like an unanswered question, kind of the thing that they're thinking about, like and for the two it's like, am I loved without working for it? And so then it's like, well, are these are twos? Just people with like attachment trauma, you know,

Kat:

like, is it attachment trauma or is it like, I think we have the ability to love unconditionally and, and we want reciprocation, you know what I mean? But I want, I want to be loved, even if I'm having a hard time, like I told this story sure. Where like a group of friends, we're all hanging out and I'm peer pressuring my one friend to play, spin the bottle, even though we're all there to place in the bottle Uhhuh. And then my one friend is not interested in playing and I, every time it comes around, it could be their time again. I was like, okay, what your, their time you do did. And then this other person in the group. Hey, or we could just center the person who like doesn't, you know, doesn't want to. And I was like, oh, I'm an asshole. And it ended up being this huge moment for me because it's like, my friends love me. Mm-hmm even though in this instance, I'm being an asshole

Val:

sure, sure. Yeah.

Kat:

Sorry. I love that story.

Val:

story. I, I think that the, the, the, the work of the two is to believe that they are loved without having to work for it. Yeah. And to sort of. Leave some of that. It does sound like anxious attachment a

Kat:

It does. Yeah. But

Val:

man, I, and, and also doing things without resentment. So the two is trying to gain love through, through relationship and through like that service. And so my thing to work on was like to sort of hold some relationships more loosely. Yeah. And to only do things that I wouldn't be resentful for and like, not feeling like I had to do those things or, or I wouldn't be loved.

Kat:

Oh my

Val:

Even as recently as like my last year's birthday party, everyone was trying to. We were trying to get everyone together. And my friend had to say to me, like, look, these people love you. Like, and if, if they gotta like figure out you know, babysitting or whatever, like they'll do it. And it was almost like I was, I felt like I needed to make it easy, even though I like, I feel like I have a pretty strong self-esteem and I know these people love me. I've known them for at least a decade. It still was like, I've gotta make it easy for people. Yeah. To love me, to show up for me. And then, you know, then we start doing things we don't wanna do and there's resentment. So that's sort of how I've used the Ingram in my life. And then just seeing that, like where you can go in stress or in health, they also have wings that you can learn about. And that kind of changes your type just a little bit.

Kat:

My wing is a three. I don't remember what that one is

Val:

I don't remember what the name is, but yeah, the three. Yeah, the three is yeah, the achiever of the performer. So I've like my intake with clients. Now I ask them my first, my first session with them. I'm like, okay, you've already told me about the problem. I wanna get to know you as the person, tell me all, every personality test you've ever taken your horoscope, everything I'm like, tell me everything, your favorite color. I ask them. What will your friends tell me about you?

Kat:

That's so good.

Val:

Cause I, I, you know, I don't want it to all be about the problem. Yeah. And pathologizing it. So I'm like, let me get to know you. And that, that gives me so much information about who they are as a person. Right.

Kat:

Oh,

Val:

last thing I'll say about any gram two that I've learned is that Rakas a seven of course, cuz the hyperactive ADHD, they're usually a seven some of the FOMO. You know, loves to travel, needs to be in motion, all these things, but it's like when a two and a seven are together, they're like this power dynamic. Like, like like a fun force of nature. I was like, yes, that is us.

Kat:

yeah, it is. Yeah. That's fun.

Val:

Okay. We said, we talk about, well, let's talk about the four tendencies next, since we're talking about change and everything. Yeah. So you actually talked to me about this first.

Kat:

Yeah. Well, you know, cuz we're,

Val:

just yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat:

So it came across my path somehow and probably a friend told me about it and then I shared it with you. And so the four tendencies, this is deals with how you are motivated to like do anything really mm-hmm and so there's the obliger and the questioner mm-hmm and the rebel, but there's what's the other one?

Val:

The upholder.

Kat:

Oh, the upholder. Okay. So this one, I feel like the words sort of are good explaining

Val:

mm-hmm mm-hmm

Kat:

the Myers Briggs. I feel like the words

Val:

yes. Are confusing. Right?

Kat:

Okay. So the. The obliger is going to go along with the flow and like, you know, you can delegate to it an obliger and they're gonna get it done. Right. The

Val:

obliger needs external. They're not doing it just for themselves. Right. They need to do it for an outside force. Mm.

Kat:

Yeah. All right. And so then the

Val:

questioner I'm gonna obliger. I know this

Kat:

the questioner is

Val:

They need to know the why, if you're gonna ask them to do something they need buy in, they're gonna, you got, you need to answer their questions of why should I do this?

Kat:

Yeah. And then the upholder, are they making the rules?

Val:

They, they wanna do it because they're another external person. Right. Because yeah, because that's the precedent. The rules make a lot of sense to them.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how many people on the Supreme court are upholders.

Val:

Interesting. Isn't that interesting?

Kat:

Okay. Then you have the rebel who like, they, they just don't want, they don't,

Val:

Just That's what they don't told.

Kat:

what to do. Yeah. And even just making the commitment to yourself. It's so tricky to navigate this, but like, there's something about anyone trying to have authority over you that you're like, Ugh. It feels confining and not good. Yeah.

Val:

Or if you, and if you need to get something done, yeah. You're gonna rebel. If it's forced on you. Yeah. Which actually is good information because I think I notice my husband does that, like he is not, he is, does not like to be put in a corner. Yeah. And so you give choice, they need choice, or like you ask a rebel, what time will you be able to get that done for me? Exactly. Yeah. it's just not always possible. I

Kat:

know, I hear it. I hear it. My kids, I, I think at least one of my kids is as, as a rebel as well. And so, but they also have ADHD. And so here's another example where all these things overlap. Right. Because Rafi and I both have ADHD, ADHD too. So with my kid, it's my, I can just tell my older kid, Hey, unload the dishwasher and then he will do it. Yeah. yeah. And then my younger one, it is like this tricky dance of getting buy-in and finding rewards or like something to help under ride the like the, they need to get, they need, I need them to get this fucking shit done, but it's just not as straightforward. And then again, as a parent, these tools are super fucking helpful. I'm not gonna crush their spirit, my younger child. I'm not gonna crush them for just being wired the way that they're wired, I'm gonna do what I can to try to get buy in. Right. Yeah. And it does look different than my other child. They are different, very different people, you know? And so the thing of like different, not wrong, very, very helpful. Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

I'm still doing my work of like accepting that and being like, yeah, it's not wrong. I just think it sometimes makes it hard to again, play well with others. And that's just the hard, like, I, I guess I need more buy-in or not buy-in, but like the upside of that, well,

Kat:

okay. So then when you read about the rebels, like when they want to do something though, it's unstoppable. Like that's the, that's the, yeah. The high point is like

Val:

they, oh, the in cuz they have internal. They're doing it for themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Okay. That's what I needed. but I mean, I'm not so happy being an upholder either because I need other people. So for me, that was really good. I used to say, oh, I'm a social doer. Like I need people around to do things. Right. And even just like in my own business doing like co-working places or we've done that where I'd be like, okay, I gotta get something done. Can you check in with me in an hour? I need external which is really pathetic in my mind too, you

Kat:

it's not pathetic

Val:

it feels it cuz it's like, geez, well, I

Kat:

just capitalism. That's

Val:

a lot of people around

Kat:

Okay.

Val:

real helpful in sort of hacking again that like self mastery hacking your own system and knowing like, even if you, if you know that you're a rebel, knowing that like, okay, giving yourself choices or finding another way to find buy-in so that you do get that internal, internal,

Kat:

even like organizing your life in a way that you're like, okay. I recognize that working like a desk for me is soul

Val:

crushing. Yeah.

Kat:

And you know, for someone else, it's not that big of a deal for me. It happens to be soul crushing. Yeah. Right. And so I organize my life differently. Yep. That's not my, that's not how

Val:

that's not my jam. That's not how we do it. Yeah. Astrology

Kat:

wait, I just have to tell everyone you just checked it off your

Val:

list. Yes.

Kat:

damn. It's so funny. Like here you are.

Val:

yes. We have a long list that we don't have a lot of time.

Kat:

Oh, that's so funny.

Val:

I think that we, maybe we also just need to have another episode about astrology and all those things, but

Kat:

I know I'm a novice, because you were saying this before, like this was all forbidden information.

Val:

Yes. Like that you'll be touching the devil's butthole. If you do that and that's not good going to hell. Oh my God.

Kat:

So I, and then I have noticed that in queer circles, people really use a lot of astrology as shorthand and maybe mainstream culture, they do are doing it too, but we don't know that you and

Val:

I, yeah,

Kat:

we were in a different

Val:

some of my younger friends and clients, it's almost like a self care or like a, a, I don't wanna say a religion, but it's their spiritual practice instead of some you know, mainstream religion.

Kat:

Well, yeah. And it's, you know, I can totally see all that. So like I find it all very interesting. And then I do identify with some of the attributes of being you know a Sagittarius, but more than that, I feel like there's the four elements. So there's like a fire sign, which is a Sagittarius. And then two other signs are fire signs. So I think Aries and say the fire sign, I can't see, I told you I'm a novice and then there's their air signs. And then there's water signs. Like a cancer is a water sign. And then there's the earth sign. And so earth people who have an earth sign like a Capricorn and a Taurus is an earth sign. They have a tendency to be like, you know, grounded, right. Earth sign. And like, really like, like in interested in like the way their physical space

Val:

works. They

Kat:

say that they're like materialistic. And I think that's like putting a negative spin on it, but they, they have a

Val:

tendency concrete things. Yes. Concrete things. Mm-hmm

Kat:

Right. And then, you know, the water signs are more emotive. That's the, the idea of the water sign,

Val:

but like changeable.

Kat:

Yeah. Yep. But big feelings, you know, and then the fire sign is like, you know, they sort of, they do, they like, they, their intensity and they burn through stuff. And I don't know the air sign. I don't know that much about the air signs, but they're like, you know, They're doing their thing too. So anyway, again, it's like a real generalization, but what I have noticed is when I'm interacting with people and I learn their sign, I learn all these things about it. I'm like, oh, that's fun. So then we send each other memes back and forth. Yeah. Like in our friend circle, like all of our signs, it's just fun. But you do find, you do find things that feel resonant. And so it's just, again, it's some, it's more information to know about yourself and to be playful, to be playful with it.

Val:

Yeah. I am also a Sagittarius. I do not burn things down like you do, but

Kat:

there's this thing about cusp ones. I

Val:

think

Kat:

that you're like an early SD. So I think you're on the

Val:

cusp

Kat:

of, the

Val:

also. Don't you need to know the time of your birth. Like there's a funny meme. That's like if a girl asks, if a girl asks you, or if you're a mother and your son calls you and asks you what time he was born, watch out, he's dating a girl that's bad news or something. Right? Like just funny, funny memes. I, I don't know. I do,

Kat:

the time you were born.

Val:

Oh, my gosh, we just had my birth certificate out. Yeah. We could be doing this live on air. No. Yeah,

Kat:

that would be fun to do sometime. Cuz it's fun.

Val:

Again, things

Kat:

you gotta know what other, your moon is in something and your, I mean

Val:

all the houses. I feel like everybody that's born on the same day. Like can't have the same personality, but

Kat:

cuz you're born in different locations. So like the, the planetary system directly above where you were born, that all you know is, is supposed to have some kind of

Val:

even though we're inside of hospitals, when we're born, we're not like exposed to the moon and the stars.

Kat:

take it up with someone else. Don't take

Val:

so funny. I love it. I'm also fascinated. Like I'm like, all right, fine. And it's again, like put this in things that our 20 year old selves never thought we would do. It's like I'm asking clients. So what's your assign? Like what does that tell me about you? How do you identify? Like what is this happening?

Kat:

if you think astrology is a lot, right? There's this other thing called human design, which is like astrology on steroids and they bring in some other stuff and it's like intense. Like I did this super long, deep dive on it a few weeks ago where I just spent like, like at least two hours, like maybe a few more than two hours. But like, I,

Val:

just the narrat the narrator says it was definitely more than two hours.

Kat:

It was a weekend. And so my kids were gone and I just found it so interesting. And then again, because I get scared off on stuff, that's too dogmatic. Ah, so I was like listening to some people that were like really, really into it. And I was like, okay, I'm stepping backwards. I'm tip toeing away. I'm sure it's useful, helpful stuff. But like the people I was hearing talk about it, like saw the whole world through this particular, you know, Like discipline,

Val:

guys, can we just stop making everything Matic, dogmatic that everybody else has to follow and just admit that you're really excited about it. Okay. You're hyper fixating on it. I think again, in therapy, when they used to ask you what your modality was or what your, you know, and I think a lot of therapists are eclectic because it's not one size fits all. And one thing will really resonate with someone or work for someone. And then it's for another person it's like, yeah, yeah. Right. So,

Kat:

human designs your thing, if you're, that's your thing, it's,

Val:

get excited or calm down. Okay. You decide which one you

Kat:

And you gotta know yourself to be able to determine that

Val:

that's right. And I'm checking off astrology on the. That's it that's enough of that. I actually think it'd be fun to get an expert in. And I actually am very curious about taro cards, because again, that was like, that was the devil's game. And so, but it's not, it's it isn't, it's, it's just a tool. So I don't know. Maybe we'll have our first guest we'll

Kat:

oh my God. I would love that. Okay.

Val:

The rest of'em, those are somes of the major ones, I guess, you know, the other ways. Well, which one should attachment styles? We've talked about them already again, please. People. This is not a, a blood test. I know. And, and I've see people on the interwebs, like making up all these different kinds and it's like, okay, whatever. It's like, if it's helpful to know, right. What level of intimacy you desire? What level of closeness and your patterns and, and you know, what your tendencies are, right? That's the basis of attachment styles.

Kat:

So there's anxious, attachment there's avoidant attachment style, and then there's the mixed, or is it called mixed? It's called something else

Val:

There's one called disorganized dis, which is like combination, which is like help Yeah. And you can have an anxious, you can have an anxious, avoidant combo. Right. I just tell people, look at the behaviors. Right. You know, and just kind of, it's really about how comfortable you feel and what you do, how you react. If you're not getting the intimacy you want, if it's too much or too little. Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. But seriously, in interpersonal relationships, when, when you guys start having those kinds of conversations, it's really helpful to know the information. Oh yeah. To just give you some tools to navigate some shit.

Val:

We talk about this in a previous episode. Go, you can go, we, we go into it a little bit more about,

Kat:

is that the breakup of stuff?

Val:

I love it. I think it's either love stinks or the breakup episode. Probably both of'em. Yeah. So if attachment styles get in that and a lot of my work with people who are dating or looking for love, we're talking about attachment style and if you're on a rollercoaster, my dear, dear, dear, dear loved one. If you're on a rollercoaster, you're probably in the anxious avoidant pair. And if you feel like you're just losing your mind, you're probably on that rollercoaster. So gimme a call. Well, no stop telling people. Good luck.

Kat:

good help. okay.

Val:

Okay. sending you love and light on that. Good luck. Seems like. Yeah. Good

Kat:

luck. Oh, good luck. So yeah. I see. I can hear that. Yeah. I mean it sincerely.

Val:

Aw,

Kat:

I'm like, oh,

Val:

Aw. You're sincere

Kat:

about it. I love it. that's so funny.

Val:

Another old one. Well from our church days was love languages. Oh yeah. But I think it's still in,

Kat:

Yeah. It's in mainstream

Val:

culture. Mainstream culture. People are also railing against it unnecessarily

Kat:

these were mad about all kind.

Val:

all, all it really is, is like, let's identify your, first reaction. Right?

Kat:

Right. Or what's meaningful to you. How do you understand love and what do you, how do you want to share love or, or demonstrate love? Like, I, I love memes that show up are like, my love language is tacos. You know what I mean? That's so funny.

Val:

right. I was. And some like deeper ones today I was looking at that was like, love languages is also like being accountable for your actions and blah, blah. I'm like, that's emotional intelligence. That's not a love language, but I get what you're saying.

Kat:

It's that's so funny. So the main love languages, there's five, according to this one researcher

Val:

person. Yes. And he's a Christian and has some real problematic views about

Kat:

him. But thank you

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. There's nobody else. Like, it's not like there's another version of this, so. Okay. Thank you for your gift to the world.

Kat:

acts of service mm-hmm right. So RAI does the dishes, right? That's how he's

Val:

say, I just tell you this quick story. That's very funny. Yeah. I was crying probably, maybe about infertility. I don't know what it was, but I came to him weeping one night.

Kat:

Yeah. A long time ago.

Val:

Yeah. Long time ago he looked me in the eyes and he was like, actually, probably didn't even look me in the eyes coward. No

Kat:

Jesus Christ.

Val:

no, no, no. He, he just, he turned to me and he.

Kat:

goes,

Val:

I'm gonna go get your favorite soup and like ran out of the house. there's a pattern of this man running away from me and my emotions. But he just ran out of the house and like went and bought Fu or something. I

Kat:

me.

Val:

know. And if I didn't know about love languages. Yeah. I probably would've changed the locks. Yeah. You, the meaning you make you fucker I'm in crisis and you're and I was like, so instead I was like, oh, I see what he's doing. He has no idea what to say emotionally.

Kat:

Right. So he's gonna do an acts of service. Right? Okay. Yeah. So acts of service.

Val:

Words of affirmation. So, you know, that's mine. Yeah, me too. Pretty please. Yeah. That's all I need. Tell me why some people even say you're amazing Val. I'm like, but tell me why. I'm amazing. Give me a lot of words. Not a cracker. Yeah. yeah, exactly.

Kat:

I mean, it's so funny that you said what what'd you say you want people to say to you?

Val:

just now?

Kat:

re yeah, just now, what do you want them to say to you?

Val:

Tell me what, tell me why you think I'm amazing,

Kat:

right? You think I'm amazing. But the first thing I said was like, tell me I'm pretty

Val:

Oh, I

Kat:

thought that was funny.

Val:

that is funny. Yeah. And then there's gifts and physical touch. Right. And I think, I think, right. We know the basics is that we try to love people out of what we want and just recognizing, and again, this was so pivotal in my relationship because you think like, oh, it's just this little thing. No, I felt deeply unloved because quality time and words of affirmation are my biggest love languages. And you know, in the age of cell phones, it was a very distract this isn't quality time. So it's a big deal. If he's like, babe, I left my phone at home. It's like, what? maybe that's why his, oh, I haven't thought about this in a while. Maybe that's why his travel is so upsetting to me is that he's gone so much and quality time is one of my things, right? Yeah.

Kat:

My other big one is, is physical touch. Like, you know, especially if I'm in a romantic connection with someone, but even just my friends, like, like physically being close together, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Val:

That's a big one. Yeah. Feeling love. So, like knowing that, and then making the efforts and the bids of connection, knowing that that's what your partner's language is. Right. So now I honestly, I see his acts more as love than as, just like before I'm like, oh, like it's not my language stop doing it.

Kat:

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then at some point all of these are sort of necessary, right. Cause if you have a, you know, a person in your life that says, I love you, I love you. I love you. And they will never do any next of service that that's gonna bug you at some point, too. Sure. You know, and same thing with like, I, I mean, maybe you really don't care about gifts, but if the person or people you love and care about, like they never,

Val:

like not on your birthday even. Yeah,

Kat:

Right. So, so there is some of that too, right? Like they're all important. Like we, we have lots of abilities to love each other. Well, sure. So.

Val:

Yeah. There's also, I, I, I think he was supposed to come out with a book on it. I don't think it ever came out, but he was gonna do apology languages. I thought that was fascinating. It's

Kat:

you should write that book, Val.

Val:

I'll just steal it from him. What do you need out of an apology? Do you want, do you just need to hear the words I am? Sorry. Is that enough? Do you need to, do you need them to know and repeat to you why it hurt you? Do you need to hear that? They'll never do it again and what they're gonna do instead.

Kat:

Fascinating.

Val:

you need to learn, hear them say what they learned from it?

Kat:

Oh yeah.

Val:

I mean, also it shouldn't be my book because I'm still dealing with like, we're still early in the apology journey if you listen to our older podcast,

Kat:

but

Val:

I thought that was really interesting too, knowing like what you need from that.

Kat:

Yeah. I love that. That's so helpful.

Val:

sharing the other one that, and these aren't personality stuff, these are just like, preferences know yourself, but even like your trauma response, like, Oh, of course. you know, we talk about fight flight freeze, right? Those are sort of the, the old, the

Kat:

OJ, the ones that most everyone knows, but yeah, the one I find myself doing or have done is fawning. Right,

Val:

right. So FAW and faint they've added. And somebody told me about another one and I'm like, okay guys, come on. If you're like not the national center for trauma. I don't know if I need to know some other kind of penguin. Are you penguin? I don't know penguin. I, I just made it up, but sometimes people just make shit up. Somebody told me a response that I, it is unnerving. This is what, what doctors must feel like with web ND where they're like, I think I have this, like, you know, and then you're like, come on, you just found

Kat:

they're just like, I know myself.

Val:

this is just basically I had a client asked me this and it was a great question. Like, are we, what are we trying to do with our. Type are we trying to eradicate it? And I said, well, it's great to know that this is your reaction to your body signaling to you that you're in danger. Yeah. Right. And, and are, we don't know the difference between emotional danger. It's just it's danger.

Kat:

right.

Val:

And old stuff, getting trapped in our body. So do you get angry? Do you attack, do you run, do you want to run away? That's what you think about, do you, or do you hide or just ignore that fawning? I think of the freeze, I feel like I freeze a lot. If someone says something, I don't know what to say. Yeah. Or later on, I'll figure out like, oh, I should have said this or that or

Kat:

I think sometimes I don't know my reaction right away, cuz I freeze.

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

and then I have I've, you know, whatever fucking all the church shit, but like I always have the exact right response first, like right in the eyes of the other person. So there's a little of the fond mixed in. So someone's coming at me with something, you know, like I will just not in the moment, not necessarily know what my own emotional reaction is, freeze until like I can get a handle on it and then say back to them exactly what they need to hear. I will say the exact right thing to them.

Val:

Yeah. That's the fun. Yeah. So

Kat:

And then later I have to sort through it and be like, okay, so here's what, here's what I gotta share here.

Val:

Yeah, yeah. So the funny, if you've never heard of that is like basically reacting in a way that is appeasing, the other person, making them happy and so that they don't attack

Kat:

it. Yeah. It, it nullifies the threat or the perceived threat. Right. Because this is just interpersonal relationships. Yeah. You know, if I was ever like really like being attacked, I don't, I don't know if I would freeze. I don't, I've not been in a

Val:

Right, right. What I like, well, even when you talk about like, right, like if there's a dog, like, okay. Pretty Dougy. Who's a pretty Dougy. Oh, you're so nice. That's

Kat:

your neighbor's dog was barking real loud. When I came here, you know what I was doing? I was fucking fawning at that dog. And, well, I wasn't super fawning, but I was like soothing that fucker. Yeah. Right.

Val:

Yeah. And we do like we, we know what to do with different animals, right? Like, like they, you know, certain bears, you just run what, and the other one you play dead. Right. That would be the, so anyway, knowing that can be really helpful in just kind of getting reconnected to your body, understanding how you respond to threats and

Kat:

and advocating for your needs too. Right. Like, so people that I'm in close relationship with where this pattern might show up, then I get to say, you know, like, Hey, I'm gonna take a few beats. It just is gonna take me some time to, to know how I feel about whatever that stimuli was. Yeah. But I'll tell you the right fucking thing, right. To your goddamn face.

Val:

Yeah. Appease. Well, you said you spent a lot of time being good and that was your protective mechanism.

Kat:

I got real good at being real good. Yeah.

Val:

And then I think there's other things like, just knowing your learning style. Oh yeah. You know, are, do you need to see things verbally or audibly or, or are you a tactile, a kinesthetic learner? Like, do you need to actually do it and have someone show you? Yeah. Are you a, are you an external processor? Are you a verbal processor? I am. I I'm gonna do some more research and get back to you on that answer. I'm not really sure yet.

Kat:

I'm a verbal processor. Are you teasing

Val:

I am.

Kat:

Okay. I was like, it's pretty obvious.

Val:

is obvious.

Kat:

Would you say you are too? Oh yeah. You gotta say that loud,

Val:

It's it's and, and they say it's the extrovert thing. Like extroverts have a really hard time with silence. And then I think that like, well the last one we'll just touch on real quick is like, I think it's really important to know like your nervous system. I don't know. I'm sure there's a quiz out there somewhere you could take, but like knowing what soothes you,

Kat:

right.

Val:

Is it, is it a forest? Is it the water? Is it a dark room? quiet. Dark room, right? Like, are you, do you like the desert? You know what are the things that soothe you from your senses? You know sense and, and tastes and textures. Yeah. And even views or things that you look at that, that calm you down colors. What colors? I had a friend who painted her bedroom, like bright red and, and that actually raises your heart rate. So I dunno if you're gonna have a spicy bedroom all the time, but like, I want my bedroom to be calm too, you know? Yeah.

Kat:

Yeah. Well, again, you know, this is how we learn how to care for ourselves. Well, right. So a lot of these are in context of like navigating human relationships. But the truth is like, when you know what soothes your nervous system, that's you get to do that. Right. You can tell other people, and that can be helpful too. But like, like this is

Val:

our your relationship with yourself is number one. Like when we talk about being in relationship yeah. This helps your relationship with yourself. Right.

Kat:

And then you can advocate for yourself, you know? So if you're activated in some way, like now you you've learned these things, you know, you need to do,

Val:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and in that sensing part, we've talked about this before the highly sensitive person, the HSP. And that for me also, if you're anxious, I want you to go and we'll, we'll put all the links in the show notes, but I want you to go and take an HS P test because they say that they wanna have everybody who's diagnosed with anxiety, also screened for HSP. And it's not just like, oh my, my emotions are sensitive. It's that they're doing research that they're people that are HSP have like, I don't know, 20% more like neural endings and like a brain activity. So it's almost like let's say your outdoor video cameras, you can set the reactivity. Mm. Right. The intensity, like, you know, zero to 10, so it's like, your sensitivity has been dialed up because you have more of that activity and then crossing over with that is being an empath. So if you have more of that, but then you're also more you have a heightened reaction to stimuli. Yeah. And this, again, the Venn diagram of overlap between. Like neuro neuro divergence, sensory processing ad the sensory processing and ADHD, the overload that might come with O C, D or anxiety. So there's lots of different nuances in all of this, but you know, the, the, the main questions are like, were you told you were dramatic as a child? Yes, I, I used to think that I was just being nasty to Rafiq when he talks so loud on the phone and he's always on the phone. And I felt like if he was talking to someone else, he was yelling at me. Or like, I found that I, my nervous system was dysregulated. Yeah. It wasn't even talking to me. Right. It was just around.

Kat:

No. Oh my gosh. My kids are watching YouTube and if it's on the television there, there are these very loud men. Doing fun things that enjoy my kids

Val:

enjoy mm-hmm

Kat:

but I'm like, I cannot hear the yelling guys. Okay. I try not to be like, I don't wanna be a downer on the stuff that they are enthusiastic about, but I was like, Hey, I get activated. Just listen to these men yell. They're just yelling so much. I'm like, no, I can't. And so I'm like, we have to put a calming show on. Nice.

Val:

yeah, no, I, I have to I got some noise canceling headphones. That's good job because I couldn't turn my music up loud enough to, to drown'em out. Yeah. See know yourself, know yourself, not yourself. All right. That was like a

Kat:

down bite at everyone. It was, but it was fun. Right. Did you guys have fun?

Val:

so just like a little smorgasborg just like, we just give you a little appetizer little tree. We'll probably come back around, circle back around and talk at depth in some of these other ones at some point, probably. This

Kat:

this is fun. Thank you for, yeah. I like the umbrella overview.

Val:

Yeah. And we'll, we'll have links in the show notes that, you know, follow your curiosity and what serves you. And maybe you heard yourself in there a little bit and just keep on that journey of understanding yourself so that you can center yourself and you can just live with a calm, nervous system. Doesn't it feel amazing. This sound amazing.

Kat:

It sounds amazing. Oh, thanks friend.

Val:

love you.

Kat:

you. Bye.

People on this episode

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Valerie DiLuggo

Host
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Kat Max

Co-host